THE MYTH OF GURKHA RIFLEMAN CARRYING PRIVATE

[sirupate]

Sorry Ted, I'll do my best.

I understand Rick, however I think one has to ask penertrating questions of someone, that has IMHO a highly flawed view of what Gurkha's could or could not carry kukri wise pre-1947, and whose opinions have influenced so many people about kukri.
I would think that it would be very hard indeed to argue against not only Gurkhas, but British Gurkha Officers who were there and done the business. They should know exactly what they are talking about, especially the likes Major General Mike Callan, who not only served with the Gurkhas, but also in the Royal Army Ordnance, etc. and the likes of Lt. Col. JP Cross, renowned Gurkha Officer, and Gurkha author, who is the only non Nepalese to be granted permision to have his own land and property in Nepal, by the Royal Family.
IMHO their view carries far more weight, than someone that has taken articles at face value, like the one by Mr. Hannah’s son of his father’s recollections (Trooper 2884497 William Hannah of the 9th Gordon Highlander’s), and looked at pictures and and comming to conclusions without knowing the circumstances behind those pictures and so on.

Just my two pennies worth Rick, cheers Simon

[Rick]

Understood Simon .

I'd just hate it if ill feelings arose during this discussion .

That's all Mate .

[spiral]

You make me laugh Simon you come out with such a pompos statement yet only A month ago you were claiming the Army Bearer Corps didnt carry kukris! That is Till I prooved you wrong once again. You now say you refer to Corparals & sargents as commisioned Officers{QGO} thats not "loose" its tottaly wrong.

Im done with this Rick, as you basicaly implied its pointlesss.

But just to add to Simons confusion. I always liked this bit published in 1952 in Leutenant-Colonel H.J. Huxfords Official history of the originaly Assam based 8th Gurkha Rifles. {I Think one battalion went to NWF about 1914 the other to France.}

"The men had to pay for there own kukris,though the leather frogs were an ordanance supply."


Spiral

[Gavin Nugent]

Where to now

[Rick]

Anywhere without rancor or ill feelings, Gav .

[sirupate]

Jonathan; only A month ago you were claiming the Army Bearer Corps didnt carry kukris! That is Till I prooved you wrong once again.

That was not the original debate Jonathan, it was originally about Gurkha caste being in the ABC, so far all you have done is shown pictures of Sikhs in the ABC carrying kukri? hardly proof of Gurkhas in the ABC for one, and that they (Gurkhas) are carrying Mk1 and Mk2 kukri in the ABC, is it?

"Once people were enlisted, the British seperated Muslims and Sikhs and Hindus. They separated them from each other. I don't know why, but this was British policy."
Sikhs without beards in WW1, which according to you was a no no in WW1;

Jonathan; I Think one battalion went to NWF about 1914 the other to France.

Certainly one battalion went France, the 2/8th were almost wiped out at Loos, of the 500 men in the attack, only 1 BO, 1 GO, and 49 rifleman were left! The 1/8th GR were involved in Mesopotamia campaign at Kut.

Jonathan; Leutenant-Colonel H.J. Huxfords Official history of the originaly Assam based 8th Gurkha Rifles. "The men had to pay for there own kukris,though the leather frogs were an ordanance supply."

A rare book Jonathan, and if that is the quote it is wrong indeed;
1. A question to Lt. Col, JP Cross (noted Gurkha Officer, Gurkha Historian and author) on 3/12/2008; With the issued kukri in WWII, would you say the kukri was produced as weapon first and a utility blade second?
Answer from JP; Weapon every time but also I think you will find that the Tripartite treaty lays it down, or if it doesn't the Maharaja did, that the kukri being a national weapon it HAD to be carried by every soldier. Otherwise the Indian Army then and the British Army later would not have bothered to arrange for their production or issue.
JP also siad in further correspondence, that the quality of the Battalion/Regimental kukri depended what the battalion was prepared to spend on each kukri for issue.
2. They would already have had Battalion issue kukri
3. A quote from You (Jonathan) on 10/11/2008 on IKRHS;
'Its definatly a mk.1 issue kukri blade, is the end of the tang still threaded?
I would say the numbers mean that it belonged to soldier number 108 in the 2nd battalion of the 8th regiment of the Gurkha rifles in WW1. Spiral'
Since when have Gurkhas or any other members of the Indian or British army had to to pay for their own Government Issue kit?
4.The statement not only breaks the agreement with Nepal about the supply and carry of kukri, I can't imagine Gurkhas being suddenley told that they had to pay for their entitled kukri, being to chuffed, especialy after what happened to them at Loos!
5. It fly's in the the face of what every single Gurkha, and serving WW2 Gurkha Officer, and every other book says about kukri and issue, even in the Gurkha Museums own book about the Kukri in WW1!!
6. Below are three issued 8th GR kukri of mine;
WW2 top
2/8 GR WW1 middle (Plus of course the 2/8th GR WW1 Government issue Mk1 picture on IKRHS)
Pr-WW1 bottom

[sirupate]

Regarding your quote Jonathan from Leutenant-Colonel H.J. Huxford, I can't imagine he would spell there instead of their?
Also it is even harder to imagine some 500 odd Gurkhas running around trying to buy kukri (Which we know were in short supply), that would fit ordanance frogs for kukri, which were made to fit and come with a certain type of sarkari issue kukri anyway! So these poor Gurkhas had to go and find kukri from somewhere that fitted these particular frog types, that also complied with regimental/battalion regulations on type of kukri carried? It is a very bizare statement indeed!
Can you imagine British soldiers being given frogs for their bayonets, and being told they have to pay for them (when like the Gurkhas with kukri, it is issued kit, as is the bayonet), and then go and find bayonets that fit with carry regulations, and also fit in the frogs supplied!

[spiral]

Originally Posted by sirupate

Regarding your quote Jonathan from , I can't imagine he would spell there instead of their?

The spelling mistake is certanly mine.

So first you say that Lt.Col.H.J. Huxford OBE Official Regimental history is wrong? Fascinating as he was the regiments Commanding Officer pre.ww2, Shame you besmirch such a Gurkha heros memory in this manner, rather than thinking any one man knows evrything.

Then you seem to accuse me of lying about what Leutenant-Colonel H.J. Huxford said in print Simon? Is that correct? {Please notice I havent said we only have your apparent memmory of what any gurkha officer may of said, are you sure there was no confusion there on your part?}

He also wrote a good piece about in 1944 them making there own kukris out of scrap.. .I have posted a quote about that for you before a couple of years ago.

Interesting "sikh"post card, please share a larger versian so we can read the regimental belt buckles in case the French postcard maker got the title wrong?


Why you quote Mohammad Hayats 1990 statement about seperating religions in 1941 British army I have no idea? Hardly relevant to Army Bearer Corps that was disbanded or rather amalgamated into the Indian Hospital Corps on 01 June 1920.

For the good members of this forum I should point out this discusian followed Simon saying this kukri on ebay ," seems to have Armourey Markings on it that don't seem quite right."



I then pointed out on IKRHS that I have similar marked kukris collected many years ago & it now appears so do quite a few others, The markings are genuine.


Heres a few photos of this piece. The Quetta arsenal stamp appears to be rare as its the only one to date Ive come across. {For whats that's worth as Ive only had 15 to 20 mk.1s in my hands & seen maybee another c.60 or more in photos & many thousands were obviously originaly made.}






This upset Simon enough that he came out with this on his forum.


I have to question why a member of the 3rd company (10 in all, some were based in Quetta) Indian Army Bearer corps would be carrying a kukri? and why a *different scabbard to the original? Who were mainly made up of Kahars (loosley 'a bearer') and Dooley (a bit like a Palanquin, but not as good) bearers, they would have to be very low caste Nepalese to be working in that corp, at that time, certainley not Gurkha caste!!
So no reason to issue kukri, which was only done to rifleman upwards in appropriate fighting regiments anyway.


Some Simon allegse that the Army Bearer corps were all low caste coolies etc so therfore could not. be of Gurkha ancestry.

To that I say you should also read this as well...


"and Indians in South Africa, under
the leadership of Mr. M. K. Gandhi, Barrister
at Law, organised themselves into an Army
Bearer Corps. It was touching that men of
high caste and station in life should brush
aside their pride of race and standing, and
work in the humble capacity of coolies. But
as more than one Indian who was thus em-
ployed has said to me, they cheerfully carried
the wounded British soldiers from the field to
the hospitals as their contribution towards
Britain's success."

From SAINT NIHAL SINGH Author of "India's Fighting Troops," 1914 marston press.

& some photos of ABC kukris & Men.

Ive got the names & army records of over 1500 ABC ww1 personal, the were all creeds,colours ,religeons & castes. Some were of Gurkha ancestry. {Over 1000 of them cam from the War Graves Commisions records.].

Also Brave Nepali men who served & survivd like.

Jagan Nath
Corps: Army Bearer Corps
Regiment No: 44342
Rank: Bearer

Kanshi Ram
Corps: Army Bearer Corps
Regiment No: 3532
Rank: Bearer

Harak Bahadur
Corps: 2nd Army Bearer Corps
Regiment No: 224613
Rank: Bearer


etc. etc. These names clearly show descent from the Gurkha/Gorka castes.



& as Dr. Premsingh Basnyat (Ph.D) states on his website when talking about the jobs of Nepalese army units on loan to the British Indian army.


"The impending tasks given to the Nepalese army were :-
Stretcher Bearer,Military Police,Sentry Duty,Artillery crew."

Which means even the Gurka solders from the Nepalese army Battalions KALIBOX, PURANO GORAKH, DEVI DUTTA, KALI BAHADUR, BARDA BAHADUR, SUMSER DAL, JABAR JUNG, PASUPATI PRASAD, RAMDAL, SHER, SINMHANATH, MAHENDRADAL, NAYAN GORAKH, SABUJ AND BARAKH were not above the task of bieng strecher bearers. I figure its safe to say they were of Gurkha ancestry as after all they were in the Royal Nepal Army!

Not to mention

ABC is the official identifying abbreviation & marking code of the Indian Army Bearer Corps.This code is used on Army Documents,medals & issued equipment.




Heres a partial list. from "The Collector and Researcher's Guide to the Great War" by Howard Williamson.{courtesy of National Archives.}


A & N.Z. SIG. SQUN. AIF Australia & New Zealand Signal Squadron AIF AUS
A. CYC. CORPS Army Cyclist Corps G.B.
A. CYCLIST CORPS Army Cyclist Corps G.B.
A. EMP. COY. A.I.F. Army Employment Company AUS
A. GYM. ST. Army Gymnastic Staff G.B.
A. MULE DEPOT. Army Mule Department I
A. PROV. C.A.I.F. Army Provost Corps AIF AUS
A. & S. HIGHRS. Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders G.B.
A. & S.H. Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders G.B.
A.A.H.A.I.F. Australian Auxiliary Hospital AIF AUS
A.A.N.S. Army Auxiliary Nursing Service G.B.
A.A.N.S. Australian Army Nursing Service AUS
A.B. CPS. Army Bearer Corps I
A.B.C. Army Bearer Corps I

[spiral]

Heres the ABC uniform of WW1.

& a bearer wearing it.



Close ups might help?



As a

[spiral]

Ok if the ABC part distracts you to much Simon, {even though you posted a small postcard photo & 1990 quote about 1941 rather than WW1 on this thread yourself for some reason?} then ignore that & lets keep on topic on this thread. I think you can manage that rather than just selecting the bits you wish to use & pretending your presenting a sound case, while ignoring the bits you dont wish to answear about private purchase kukri.

I missed your "questian" in post 33 my apogies it was hidden amongst such a rant I just passsed over it. A link would have helped.

Originally Posted by sirupate

A rare book Jonathan, and if that is the quote it is wrong indeed;

3. A quote from You (Jonathan) on 10/11/2008 on IKRHS;
'Its definatly a mk.1 issue kukri blade, is the end of the tang still threaded?
I would say the numbers mean that it belonged to soldier number 108 in the 2nd battalion of the 8th regiment of the Gurkha rifles in WW1. Spiral'
Since when have Gurkhas or any other members of the Indian or British army had to to pay for their own Government Issue kit?

{The above quote by myself is from. linky... There thats not difficult is it Simon?

My Quote from Leutenant-Colonel H.J. Huxfords Official Regimenal history
"The men had to pay for there own kukris,though the leather frogs were an ordnance supply."

Is an accurate quote, its not a blanket statement meaning evry kukri at evry time & evry place was always payed for by the inlisted men!

What makes you think its a blanket statement? After all I mentioned them making kukris out of found scrap in 1944, obviously they wernt paying for those either!

Originally Posted by sirupate

"when have Gurkhas or any other members of the Indian or British army had to to pay for their own Government Issue kit?"

You want more free kukri knowledge from me Simon?

O Well just this time.. kukri were first offcialy autherised for the 8th GR in 1881, before then they were always private purchase & carried unofficialy but obviosly sanctioned & allowed.

spiral

[tom hyle]

Well, I will read this whole thread, but my initial thought is that what official sources or leaders say about what soldiers actually do in any army in any time is close to useless/meaningless information Do you know soldiers? Their slaviness is over-rated. If their leaders are competent their interest in their soldiers' slaviness and standardization are more for outer show and inner unity and efficiency than for interfering with what works.
In other words, what would you expect the officials to say? The official line.

[sirupate]

Answered

[kronckew]

interesting photo of current practises:

the closed cho on the rather chitlangi-esque khukuri of the lance naik is interesting. the details on the ones carried by the riflemen are a bit less clear.

[sirupate]

Hello Kronck,

Certainley after WW2 the practice was very very different. When I was talikng to Lt Col. JP Cross about the W/S kukri, he remembers his men using other kukri in Jungle.
Also speaking to Captain Harding he remembers when he was an Officer, that Bandsmen kukri were chromed to smarten them, which the Gurkhas sometimes arrange themselves (often being done by the Regimental Sunar ref; GM), but he also pointed out that they were often bought and paid for by the Officers for the Bandsman, and if the kukri purchased needed to be chromed, again the Officers would often pay for that. Interstingly the kukri issued to the bandsmen at that time had had metal rings around the handle, much like Major General Mike Callan's kukri.
He also said that Rifleman with their issued kukri often went and got the scabbard covered in patent leather for parade, and purchased another for actual use.
Also Major Gerald Davies of the GM, said around 1950 the regs changed to allow the Gurkhas to carry their own kukri outside of Ceremonial and Parade duties etc. Also Major Gerald Davies was the one that pointed out the mistake that Jonathan had made about the so called private purchase Kothimora Kukri that a Bandsman was wearing, they were bought by the bands CO to brighten the Band up!
I hope that helps,