Need example of Pamors: Meteor, Luwu, and modern Nickel

A. G. Maisey · 15th June 2010, 03:38 PM

Thanks for coming to the party Kai.

I'm not going to hand out the drinks yet, I'd like a few more people through the door first.

Neo · 17th June 2010, 12:53 PM

I have been trying my best to post some opinion, but apparently most of my efforts have mostly been at DIGESTING the bulk of rich, new information here

It will probably be another week or two of going back and forth between reading book and looking at the images again in my spare time before I can post any learned opinion aside from wild guess ... So I just decide to throw in the white towel from my corner to avoid being rude (because I started this thread) ...

Meanwhile, I completely don't mind if we wait for some more informed folks to join the party before Mr. Maisey hands out the drink

A. G. Maisey · 17th June 2010, 02:39 PM

I'd really like Graham to come back and try to knock the duckies down.

Graham is a man with knowledge and experience in this field and I believe his opinion is probably as close to as good as anybody is going to give, who has not had very close experience with the Javanese keris world.

I'll let it go a little bit longer, but I must admit that for a thread which seems to be drawing some attention, I'm a little disappointed that so few people are prepared to give an opinion.

This whole exercise is not about being right or wrong.

It is not about trying to impart information, because what we see in these pictures will not necessarily give a guide to what we might see in other pictures. In effect, the pics are pretty close to useless as a vehicle of knowledge.

It is about trying to demonstrate that pictures are simply not good enough to learn this subject from.

lemmythesmith · 17th June 2010, 10:14 PM

Hi Alan, I've been meaning to reply on the new lot of pics-got sidetracked with a work in progress (not a keris!) so.............

1-could be meteoric, I've noticed that meteoric can sometimes develop a "coppery" tone, only very slight but this pamor looks that way. Mlumah

2-pamor with a higher proportion of nickel material, could be pure nickel. Mlumah

3-looks like a ferrous nickel alloy without too much nickel , I'll go for native smelted metal-luwu. Miring

4-same as 2. Has a melted look to the nickel, low layer count. Miring

5-could be meteoric, may be high nickel content ferrous alloy. Mlumah.

6-I'll say the same as 3. Mlumah.

I'll try and post a couple of pics myself, the pics may not all be keris blades but they will all be pamor alloys found on keris,
C'mon guys....step up to the plate, have a go!! A good fun learning experience.

Regards, Graham.

Gustav · 17th June 2010, 11:32 PM

I simply don't have enough knowledge about forging work, different pamor material and staining to say something at all.

About #1 I also thought, it could be metheoritic, becouse of very thin, sometimes almost transparent layers. I have also heard about colour variations, but isn't this colour coming from rust and/or staining?

I thought, #5 could be nickel.

#4 looks like a combination of mlumah and miring.

As #3 is pamor poleng, it couldn't be older then 30 years (?). Is the surface treatened in this way, because it could be an old looking dhapur?

A. G. Maisey · 18th June 2010, 01:21 AM

Thanks for your answers Graham and Gustav.

As previously advised, only one of these pamors is known for certain, the other pamor information is opinion, but probably as good an opinion as you can get, and it is Javanese keris expert opinion, in three cases from men who have made Javanese keris, in one case from a dealer in Javanese keris, the total experience represented is about 200 years.

Where I have noted "consensus of opinion", this refers to the material, whether the pamor is miring or mlumah is known with certainty as this can be clearly seen in the physical presence of the blade. Somebody with experience in this field does not need to see more than an inch or so of blade to be able to know with certainty whether it is miring or mlumah, but you need to see the blade, not an image of the blade. From an image it is extremely difficult to know anything.

1. --- meteoritic, attributed to Empu Jayasukadgo, surface manipulated pamor mlumah.Consensus of opinion

2. --- meteoritic, attributed to Empu Jayasukadgo, mlumah. Consensus of opinion.

3. --- believed to be motor bike muffler and mild steel, current era, Sumenep Madura, miring. Consensus of opinion

4. --- luwu, mlumah; this blade is a Bugis "chieftain" keris, probably second half of the 19th century, appears to have been removed from point of origin soon after manufacture. Provenance is partly known which supports the consensus of opinion.

5. --- European nickel and mild steel, current era production by a leading Surakarta pandai keris, surface manipulated mlumah. This pamor is known for certain.

6. --- believed to be motor bike muffler and mild steel, current era, Sumenep Madura, mlumah.Consensus of opinion.

Graham is obviously pretty good at this game, but even his knowledge and experience does not give a perfect result.

Given the same images , but without personal knowledge, I doubt that I would even come as close as has Graham.

What chance has a person without extensive knowledge and experience of hands

A. G. Maisey · 18th June 2010, 01:22 AM

Thanks for your answers Graham and Gustav.

As previously advised, only one of these pamors is known for certain, the other pamor information is opinion, but probably as good an opinion as you can get, and it is Javanese keris expert opinion, in three cases from men who have made Javanese keris, in one case from a dealer in Javanese keris, the total experience represented is about 200 years.

Where I have noted "consensus of opinion", this refers to the material, whether the pamor is miring or mlumah is known with certainty as this can be clearly seen in the physical presence of the blade. Somebody with experience in this field does not need to see more than an inch or so of blade to be able to know with certainty whether it is miring or mlumah, but you need to see the blade, not an image of the blade. From an image it is extremely difficult to know anything.

1. --- meteoritic, attributed to Empu Jayasukadgo, surface manipulated pamor mlumah.Consensus of opinion

2. --- meteoritic, attributed to Empu Jayasukadgo, mlumah. Consensus of opinion.

3. --- believed to be motor bike muffler and mild steel, current era, Sumenep Madura, miring. Consensus of opinion

4. --- luwu, mlumah; this blade is a Bugis "chieftain" keris, probably second half of the 19th century, appears to have been removed from point of origin soon after manufacture. Provenance is partly known which supports the consensus of opinion.

5. --- European nickel and mild steel, current era production by a leading Surakarta pandai keris, surface manipulated mlumah. This pamor is known for certain.

6. --- believed to be motor bike muffler and mild steel, current era, Sumenep Madura, mlumah.Consensus of opinion.

Graham is obviously pretty good at this game, but even his knowledge and experience does not give a perfect result.

Given the same images , but without personal knowledge, I doubt that I would even come as close as has Graham.

What chance has a person without extensive knowledge and experience of hands on forge work in this medium got of learning anything at all from pictures?

rasdan · 20th June 2010, 05:13 PM

G'day Alan,

Sorry i'm a bit late. Thank you very much for your explanation. From what i see, i think i can conclude that it is impossible to differentiate pure nickel and nickel ferro pamor from pictures. I'm afraid i only have rookie questions on this issues. Sorry..

1. What do you think is the contributor to the prickly feel to meteor pamor as compared to nickel?

2. How do we differentiate an old iron that is folded numerous times to make a dense material and modern iron which is already dense? Probably the folding lines, but if it is very dense i would imagine that the line would disappear. No?

3. How can we differentiate the lines of fibrous inclusions found naturally in wrought iron to the folding lines produced by repeated folding or mbesut process?

Thank you..

15th June 2010, 03:38 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Thanks for coming to the party Kai. I'm not going to hand out the drinks yet, I'd like a few more people through the door first.

17th June 2010, 12:53 PM	#2
Neo Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 59	I have been trying my best to post some opinion, but apparently most of my efforts have mostly been at DIGESTING the bulk of rich, new information here It will probably be another week or two of going back and forth between reading book and looking at the images again in my spare time before I can post any learned opinion aside from wild guess ... So I just decide to throw in the white towel from my corner to avoid being rude (because I started this thread) ... Meanwhile, I completely don't mind if we wait for some more informed folks to join the party before Mr. Maisey hands out the drink

17th June 2010, 02:39 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	I'd really like Graham to come back and try to knock the duckies down. Graham is a man with knowledge and experience in this field and I believe his opinion is probably as close to as good as anybody is going to give, who has not had very close experience with the Javanese keris world. I'll let it go a little bit longer, but I must admit that for a thread which seems to be drawing some attention, I'm a little disappointed that so few people are prepared to give an opinion. This whole exercise is not about being right or wrong. It is not about trying to impart information, because what we see in these pictures will not necessarily give a guide to what we might see in other pictures. In effect, the pics are pretty close to useless as a vehicle of knowledge. It is about trying to demonstrate that pictures are simply not good enough to learn this subject from.

17th June 2010, 10:14 PM	#4
lemmythesmith Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 93	Hi Alan, I've been meaning to reply on the new lot of pics-got sidetracked with a work in progress (not a keris!) so............. 1-could be meteoric, I've noticed that meteoric can sometimes develop a "coppery" tone, only very slight but this pamor looks that way. Mlumah 2-pamor with a higher proportion of nickel material, could be pure nickel. Mlumah 3-looks like a ferrous nickel alloy without too much nickel , I'll go for native smelted metal-luwu. Miring 4-same as 2. Has a melted look to the nickel, low layer count. Miring 5-could be meteoric, may be high nickel content ferrous alloy. Mlumah. 6-I'll say the same as 3. Mlumah. I'll try and post a couple of pics myself, the pics may not all be keris blades but they will all be pamor alloys found on keris, C'mon guys....step up to the plate, have a go!! A good fun learning experience. Regards, Graham.

17th June 2010, 11:32 PM	#5
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	I simply don't have enough knowledge about forging work, different pamor material and staining to say something at all. About #1 I also thought, it could be metheoritic, becouse of very thin, sometimes almost transparent layers. I have also heard about colour variations, but isn't this colour coming from rust and/or staining? I thought, #5 could be nickel. #4 looks like a combination of mlumah and miring. As #3 is pamor poleng, it couldn't be older then 30 years (?). Is the surface treatened in this way, because it could be an old looking dhapur?

18th June 2010, 01:21 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Thanks for your answers Graham and Gustav. As previously advised, only one of these pamors is known for certain, the other pamor information is opinion, but probably as good an opinion as you can get, and it is Javanese keris expert opinion, in three cases from men who have made Javanese keris, in one case from a dealer in Javanese keris, the total experience represented is about 200 years. Where I have noted "consensus of opinion", this refers to the material, whether the pamor is miring or mlumah is known with certainty as this can be clearly seen in the physical presence of the blade. Somebody with experience in this field does not need to see more than an inch or so of blade to be able to know with certainty whether it is miring or mlumah, but you need to see the blade, not an image of the blade. From an image it is extremely difficult to know anything. 1. --- meteoritic, attributed to Empu Jayasukadgo, surface manipulated pamor mlumah.Consensus of opinion 2. --- meteoritic, attributed to Empu Jayasukadgo, mlumah. Consensus of opinion. 3. --- believed to be motor bike muffler and mild steel, current era, Sumenep Madura, miring. Consensus of opinion 4. --- luwu, mlumah; this blade is a Bugis "chieftain" keris, probably second half of the 19th century, appears to have been removed from point of origin soon after manufacture. Provenance is partly known which supports the consensus of opinion. 5. --- European nickel and mild steel, current era production by a leading Surakarta pandai keris, surface manipulated mlumah. This pamor is known for certain. 6. --- believed to be motor bike muffler and mild steel, current era, Sumenep Madura, mlumah.Consensus of opinion. Graham is obviously pretty good at this game, but even his knowledge and experience does not give a perfect result. Given the same images , but without personal knowledge, I doubt that I would even come as close as has Graham. What chance has a person without extensive knowledge and experience of hands

18th June 2010, 01:22 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Thanks for your answers Graham and Gustav. As previously advised, only one of these pamors is known for certain, the other pamor information is opinion, but probably as good an opinion as you can get, and it is Javanese keris expert opinion, in three cases from men who have made Javanese keris, in one case from a dealer in Javanese keris, the total experience represented is about 200 years. Where I have noted "consensus of opinion", this refers to the material, whether the pamor is miring or mlumah is known with certainty as this can be clearly seen in the physical presence of the blade. Somebody with experience in this field does not need to see more than an inch or so of blade to be able to know with certainty whether it is miring or mlumah, but you need to see the blade, not an image of the blade. From an image it is extremely difficult to know anything. 1. --- meteoritic, attributed to Empu Jayasukadgo, surface manipulated pamor mlumah.Consensus of opinion 2. --- meteoritic, attributed to Empu Jayasukadgo, mlumah. Consensus of opinion. 3. --- believed to be motor bike muffler and mild steel, current era, Sumenep Madura, miring. Consensus of opinion 4. --- luwu, mlumah; this blade is a Bugis "chieftain" keris, probably second half of the 19th century, appears to have been removed from point of origin soon after manufacture. Provenance is partly known which supports the consensus of opinion. 5. --- European nickel and mild steel, current era production by a leading Surakarta pandai keris, surface manipulated mlumah. This pamor is known for certain. 6. --- believed to be motor bike muffler and mild steel, current era, Sumenep Madura, mlumah.Consensus of opinion. Graham is obviously pretty good at this game, but even his knowledge and experience does not give a perfect result. Given the same images , but without personal knowledge, I doubt that I would even come as close as has Graham. What chance has a person without extensive knowledge and experience of hands on forge work in this medium got of learning anything at all from pictures?

20th June 2010, 05:13 PM	#8
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 368	G'day Alan, Sorry i'm a bit late. Thank you very much for your explanation. From what i see, i think i can conclude that it is impossible to differentiate pure nickel and nickel ferro pamor from pictures. I'm afraid i only have rookie questions on this issues. Sorry.. 1. What do you think is the contributor to the prickly feel to meteor pamor as compared to nickel? 2. How do we differentiate an old iron that is folded numerous times to make a dense material and modern iron which is already dense? Probably the folding lines, but if it is very dense i would imagine that the line would disappear. No? 3. How can we differentiate the lines of fibrous inclusions found naturally in wrought iron to the folding lines produced by repeated folding or mbesut process? Thank you..