WW2 Hill Tribe Dha

Tim Simmons · 15th June 2010, 07:31 AM

aiontay, you raise some interesting possibilities.

The blade need not be WW2. I have to say even with the use of cycle parts there is nothing to suggest shortage of materials or evidence of hurried production. The work is clean with no tool marks. The Hercules bicycle production started from small beginnings in 1910. Expansion was swift and after war work for WW1 {presumably the army would still need bicycles as well as other military hardware} emerged in the 1920s as the worlds biggest exporter of bicycles. It might seem cheap to us to use bicycle parts but if you are from a non-industrial background, the shiny chrome bicycle parts may have been quite a prize to use in the sword handle.

So we could be looking at two decades or more before 1940.

I really like the idea of Japanese occupation influence. There was a degree of Burman support for the Japanese. Still a fancy blade for the restriction of war time production but not in anyway impossible. ref-Aung San's Burmese National Army

One reason I have no pictures of hill tribes with this type of Dha. May well be as you say: it is Burman. This is the only picture I have of this type of Dha and it is not helpful.

printed 1918.

Tim Simmons · 15th June 2010, 08:37 PM

Looking further into the bicycle matter. I have found these WW1 pictures of British military bicycles. I know that from 1914-1918 there was a war on but trade and traffic between the UK or should I say at that time GREAT BRITAIN and the empire colony of Burma would not have come to a complete halt. So it really is not unreasonable to consider a date of manufacture for this sword, some good time before WW2. War for Hercules bicycles could have been a good thing. Bicycles would be much simpler to export as colonial transport at that time than motor vehicles.

Jim McDougall · 15th June 2010, 08:38 PM

Aiontay, very astutely presented perspective! and well placed.

Good points you make too David. As I have discovered in studying many of the markings on trade blades adopted by Native peoples, the emphasis on these markings by the traders which was intended to suggest quality, became perceived in the sense of power.
This in turn became temporally associated talismanically, such as the paired moons on Saharan and some Sudanese sword blades, the cabalistic markings and in some cases the sickle marks or running wolf.

The tattoo analogy is excellent in describing this characteristic phenomenon. With todays tattoo craze, I am constantly astounded at the 'sheep' syndrome, where if everyone puts a tattoo on thier ankle....the followers must do the same thing. I have seen interesting geometric patterns in some and when I asked the often graffiti laden owner, what it means. The common response.....oh, its tribal. Huh? what tribal, do we have any idea what it is for?
I think sociologically the tattoo syndrome is really fascinating, especially historically, even in somewhat recent times when military forces, esp. sailors got them. After all, the maritime origins were profound. The point is, that the human need to find meaning is found throughout time and regardless of culture.

I remember another case where I was having a marking on a Chinese sword in Manchu script translated, and hoped to find some secretive or talismanic phrase......turned out to say...tempered steel

oh well.

All best regards,
Jim

Tim Simmons · 16th June 2010, 08:02 PM

Some respite here comfortably in the middle. Why is history so boring and distorted at schools? Saya San peasant rebellion.

aiontay · 17th June 2010, 04:09 AM

The Saya San Rebellion brings colonialism, tattoos and swords all togather. And while it was definitely a peasant rebellion, as Martin Smith notes, it did influence the Thakin movement.

Tim Simmons · 17th June 2010, 08:27 AM

Picture of questionable Victorian pose and taste, but gives some idea. On the other hand could be just a very decorative rent boy for want of better words?

aiontay · 17th June 2010, 12:48 PM

Note the caption underneath. Immunity from sword or gunshot wounds. The Karens and Shans have the same beliefs. I know of a pattern that is supposed to confer immunity to sword cuts.

Nathaniel · 17th June 2010, 02:03 PM

Thai have the same as well......some of the markings on the swords or person are for protection/ blessing.

Aiontay, do you have a picture or can draw a picture of the protection tatoo your mention? That would be interesting to see

Is it a Burmese, Shan or Kachin Yant?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yantra_tattooing

15th June 2010, 07:31 AM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	aiontay, you raise some interesting possibilities. The blade need not be WW2. I have to say even with the use of cycle parts there is nothing to suggest shortage of materials or evidence of hurried production. The work is clean with no tool marks. The Hercules bicycle production started from small beginnings in 1910. Expansion was swift and after war work for WW1 {presumably the army would still need bicycles as well as other military hardware} emerged in the 1920s as the worlds biggest exporter of bicycles. It might seem cheap to us to use bicycle parts but if you are from a non-industrial background, the shiny chrome bicycle parts may have been quite a prize to use in the sword handle. So we could be looking at two decades or more before 1940. I really like the idea of Japanese occupation influence. There was a degree of Burman support for the Japanese. Still a fancy blade for the restriction of war time production but not in anyway impossible. ref-Aung San's Burmese National Army One reason I have no pictures of hill tribes with this type of Dha. May well be as you say: it is Burman. This is the only picture I have of this type of Dha and it is not helpful. printed 1918. Attached Images Last edited by Tim Simmons; 15th June 2010 at 07:57 AM.

15th June 2010, 08:37 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	Looking further into the bicycle matter. I have found these WW1 pictures of British military bicycles. I know that from 1914-1918 there was a war on but trade and traffic between the UK or should I say at that time GREAT BRITAIN and the empire colony of Burma would not have come to a complete halt. So it really is not unreasonable to consider a date of manufacture for this sword, some good time before WW2. War for Hercules bicycles could have been a good thing. Bicycles would be much simpler to export as colonial transport at that time than motor vehicles. Attached Images

16th June 2010, 08:02 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	Halfway house Some respite here comfortably in the middle. Why is history so boring and distorted at schools? Saya San peasant rebellion.

17th June 2010, 08:27 AM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	Burman+Tattoos+Dha Picture of questionable Victorian pose and taste, but gives some idea. On the other hand could be just a very decorative rent boy for want of better words? Attached Images

15th June 2010, 08:38 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Aiontay, very astutely presented perspective! and well placed. Good points you make too David. As I have discovered in studying many of the markings on trade blades adopted by Native peoples, the emphasis on these markings by the traders which was intended to suggest quality, became perceived in the sense of power. This in turn became temporally associated talismanically, such as the paired moons on Saharan and some Sudanese sword blades, the cabalistic markings and in some cases the sickle marks or running wolf. The tattoo analogy is excellent in describing this characteristic phenomenon. With todays tattoo craze, I am constantly astounded at the 'sheep' syndrome, where if everyone puts a tattoo on thier ankle....the followers must do the same thing. I have seen interesting geometric patterns in some and when I asked the often graffiti laden owner, what it means. The common response.....oh, its tribal. Huh? what tribal, do we have any idea what it is for? I think sociologically the tattoo syndrome is really fascinating, especially historically, even in somewhat recent times when military forces, esp. sailors got them. After all, the maritime origins were profound. The point is, that the human need to find meaning is found throughout time and regardless of culture. I remember another case where I was having a marking on a Chinese sword in Manchu script translated, and hoped to find some secretive or talismanic phrase......turned out to say...tempered steel oh well. All best regards, Jim

17th June 2010, 04:09 AM	#5
aiontay Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 88	The Saya San Rebellion brings colonialism, tattoos and swords all togather. And while it was definitely a peasant rebellion, as Martin Smith notes, it did influence the Thakin movement.

17th June 2010, 12:48 PM	#7
aiontay Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 88	Note the caption underneath. Immunity from sword or gunshot wounds. The Karens and Shans have the same beliefs. I know of a pattern that is supposed to confer immunity to sword cuts.

17th June 2010, 02:03 PM	#8
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	Thai have the same as well......some of the markings on the swords or person are for protection/ blessing. Aiontay, do you have a picture or can draw a picture of the protection tatoo your mention? That would be interesting to see Is it a Burmese, Shan or Kachin Yant? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yantra_tattooing