WW2 Hill Tribe Dha

Jim McDougall · 14th June 2010, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

I like it Tim

,
I thought most Dha blades were an 'interference' fit in the handle. Perhaps the tang was slightly 'over wrapped' before insertion, preventing a 'total' fit.

I love the idea of an old bike being broken up to use as parts....and using a wheel hub, a 'master' stroke. Nice blade, I wonder if the 'white' metal decoration are from old dry cell battery casings (if Zinc alloy).

Were small nails commonly used to fix the (shark/ray skin ?) wrapping on Dha ?

Regards David

David, regarding batteries...many years ago I had a Burmese dha with the heavily embossed casing overall and the 'story' type blade. In looking closely at the motif in the casing one day, I could clearly see 'Ever ready' ! the well known batteries.

Very innovative use of materials!

Andrew, the work you, Mark and Ian did over the years on dha is definitely legion!!! I recall that when you guys began this, there was virtually no reference material on these weapons, though Carter Rila did some brief preliminary work. Its nice to see you posting

katana · 14th June 2010, 10:26 PM

Thanks Jim

,
I am not surprised, zinc battery cases have been known to be used in Africa.

I, personally, often find it facinating how the 'refuse' of the 'industrial' colonist's / invaders/ settlers are utilized by the indiginous people. I would imagine at the time of the hilt's manufacture, the chromed axle was probably 'nice and shiny' and not only was pleasing to the eye ...but provided a nice 'counter-weight to the blade. Shame about the engraved writing.....but thats me looking through the eyes of a 'Westerner'. Perhaps, to the owner, unable to read English would view the 'design' differently....or even Talismatically ...
I am reminded in the craze of ethnic tatoo's a few years ago....often with the script in the original language.....often the tatoo-ee was quite happy with the result but, later discovered the English translation was rather mundane and not as awe inspiring as they first thought.

Tim,
I am certain that the pommel is the other end of the hub with the spoke 'fixing ring' removed .....is there evidence of the use of an angle grinder, file or saw marks ?

Kind Regards David

aiontay · 15th June 2010, 01:04 AM

Just a couple of comments. First, this is supposed to be a WWII blade, and given the situation at the time, one can easily see how a sword could be cobbled togather with a bunch of disparate elements. Given that Japan controlled most of Burma during this time, a certain "Japanese" feel may not be unintended.

I have absolutely no empirical evidence for this, but I feel this isn't a "hill tribe" dha, but rather one made by a Burman. After all bicyles and sharkskin would have been in rather short supply around, say, Sumbrabum during WWII. On the other hand, it is entirely possible that this sword ended up in some hill tribesman's hand during the war.

Tim Simmons · 15th June 2010, 07:31 AM

aiontay, you raise some interesting possibilities.

The blade need not be WW2. I have to say even with the use of cycle parts there is nothing to suggest shortage of materials or evidence of hurried production. The work is clean with no tool marks. The Hercules bicycle production started from small beginnings in 1910. Expansion was swift and after war work for WW1 {presumably the army would still need bicycles as well as other military hardware} emerged in the 1920s as the worlds biggest exporter of bicycles. It might seem cheap to us to use bicycle parts but if you are from a non-industrial background, the shiny chrome bicycle parts may have been quite a prize to use in the sword handle.

So we could be looking at two decades or more before 1940.

I really like the idea of Japanese occupation influence. There was a degree of Burman support for the Japanese. Still a fancy blade for the restriction of war time production but not in anyway impossible. ref-Aung San's Burmese National Army

One reason I have no pictures of hill tribes with this type of Dha. May well be as you say: it is Burman. This is the only picture I have of this type of Dha and it is not helpful.

printed 1918.

Tim Simmons · 15th June 2010, 08:37 PM

Looking further into the bicycle matter. I have found these WW1 pictures of British military bicycles. I know that from 1914-1918 there was a war on but trade and traffic between the UK or should I say at that time GREAT BRITAIN and the empire colony of Burma would not have come to a complete halt. So it really is not unreasonable to consider a date of manufacture for this sword, some good time before WW2. War for Hercules bicycles could have been a good thing. Bicycles would be much simpler to export as colonial transport at that time than motor vehicles.

Jim McDougall · 15th June 2010, 08:38 PM

Aiontay, very astutely presented perspective! and well placed.

Good points you make too David. As I have discovered in studying many of the markings on trade blades adopted by Native peoples, the emphasis on these markings by the traders which was intended to suggest quality, became perceived in the sense of power.
This in turn became temporally associated talismanically, such as the paired moons on Saharan and some Sudanese sword blades, the cabalistic markings and in some cases the sickle marks or running wolf.

The tattoo analogy is excellent in describing this characteristic phenomenon. With todays tattoo craze, I am constantly astounded at the 'sheep' syndrome, where if everyone puts a tattoo on thier ankle....the followers must do the same thing. I have seen interesting geometric patterns in some and when I asked the often graffiti laden owner, what it means. The common response.....oh, its tribal. Huh? what tribal, do we have any idea what it is for?
I think sociologically the tattoo syndrome is really fascinating, especially historically, even in somewhat recent times when military forces, esp. sailors got them. After all, the maritime origins were profound. The point is, that the human need to find meaning is found throughout time and regardless of culture.

I remember another case where I was having a marking on a Chinese sword in Manchu script translated, and hoped to find some secretive or talismanic phrase......turned out to say...tempered steel

oh well.

All best regards,
Jim

Tim Simmons · 16th June 2010, 08:02 PM

Some respite here comfortably in the middle. Why is history so boring and distorted at schools? Saya San peasant rebellion.

aiontay · 17th June 2010, 04:09 AM

The Saya San Rebellion brings colonialism, tattoos and swords all togather. And while it was definitely a peasant rebellion, as Martin Smith notes, it did influence the Thakin movement.

15th June 2010, 07:31 AM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	aiontay, you raise some interesting possibilities. The blade need not be WW2. I have to say even with the use of cycle parts there is nothing to suggest shortage of materials or evidence of hurried production. The work is clean with no tool marks. The Hercules bicycle production started from small beginnings in 1910. Expansion was swift and after war work for WW1 {presumably the army would still need bicycles as well as other military hardware} emerged in the 1920s as the worlds biggest exporter of bicycles. It might seem cheap to us to use bicycle parts but if you are from a non-industrial background, the shiny chrome bicycle parts may have been quite a prize to use in the sword handle. So we could be looking at two decades or more before 1940. I really like the idea of Japanese occupation influence. There was a degree of Burman support for the Japanese. Still a fancy blade for the restriction of war time production but not in anyway impossible. ref-Aung San's Burmese National Army One reason I have no pictures of hill tribes with this type of Dha. May well be as you say: it is Burman. This is the only picture I have of this type of Dha and it is not helpful. printed 1918. Attached Images Last edited by Tim Simmons; 15th June 2010 at 07:57 AM.

15th June 2010, 08:37 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	Looking further into the bicycle matter. I have found these WW1 pictures of British military bicycles. I know that from 1914-1918 there was a war on but trade and traffic between the UK or should I say at that time GREAT BRITAIN and the empire colony of Burma would not have come to a complete halt. So it really is not unreasonable to consider a date of manufacture for this sword, some good time before WW2. War for Hercules bicycles could have been a good thing. Bicycles would be much simpler to export as colonial transport at that time than motor vehicles. Attached Images

16th June 2010, 08:02 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	Halfway house Some respite here comfortably in the middle. Why is history so boring and distorted at schools? Saya San peasant rebellion.

14th June 2010, 10:26 PM	#2
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Thanks Jim , I am not surprised, zinc battery cases have been known to be used in Africa. I, personally, often find it facinating how the 'refuse' of the 'industrial' colonist's / invaders/ settlers are utilized by the indiginous people. I would imagine at the time of the hilt's manufacture, the chromed axle was probably 'nice and shiny' and not only was pleasing to the eye ...but provided a nice 'counter-weight to the blade. Shame about the engraved writing.....but thats me looking through the eyes of a 'Westerner'. Perhaps, to the owner, unable to read English would view the 'design' differently....or even Talismatically ... I am reminded in the craze of ethnic tatoo's a few years ago....often with the script in the original language.....often the tatoo-ee was quite happy with the result but, later discovered the English translation was rather mundane and not as awe inspiring as they first thought. Tim, I am certain that the pommel is the other end of the hub with the spoke 'fixing ring' removed .....is there evidence of the use of an angle grinder, file or saw marks ? Kind Regards David

15th June 2010, 01:04 AM	#3
aiontay Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 88	Just a couple of comments. First, this is supposed to be a WWII blade, and given the situation at the time, one can easily see how a sword could be cobbled togather with a bunch of disparate elements. Given that Japan controlled most of Burma during this time, a certain "Japanese" feel may not be unintended. I have absolutely no empirical evidence for this, but I feel this isn't a "hill tribe" dha, but rather one made by a Burman. After all bicyles and sharkskin would have been in rather short supply around, say, Sumbrabum during WWII. On the other hand, it is entirely possible that this sword ended up in some hill tribesman's hand during the war.

15th June 2010, 08:38 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Aiontay, very astutely presented perspective! and well placed. Good points you make too David. As I have discovered in studying many of the markings on trade blades adopted by Native peoples, the emphasis on these markings by the traders which was intended to suggest quality, became perceived in the sense of power. This in turn became temporally associated talismanically, such as the paired moons on Saharan and some Sudanese sword blades, the cabalistic markings and in some cases the sickle marks or running wolf. The tattoo analogy is excellent in describing this characteristic phenomenon. With todays tattoo craze, I am constantly astounded at the 'sheep' syndrome, where if everyone puts a tattoo on thier ankle....the followers must do the same thing. I have seen interesting geometric patterns in some and when I asked the often graffiti laden owner, what it means. The common response.....oh, its tribal. Huh? what tribal, do we have any idea what it is for? I think sociologically the tattoo syndrome is really fascinating, especially historically, even in somewhat recent times when military forces, esp. sailors got them. After all, the maritime origins were profound. The point is, that the human need to find meaning is found throughout time and regardless of culture. I remember another case where I was having a marking on a Chinese sword in Manchu script translated, and hoped to find some secretive or talismanic phrase......turned out to say...tempered steel oh well. All best regards, Jim

17th June 2010, 04:09 AM	#8
aiontay Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 88	The Saya San Rebellion brings colonialism, tattoos and swords all togather. And while it was definitely a peasant rebellion, as Martin Smith notes, it did influence the Thakin movement.