Need example of Pamors: Meteor, Luwu, and modern Nickel

A. G. Maisey · 14th June 2010, 02:11 AM

OK.

That was the easy stuff :- pamor that I knew exactly what it was.

Now we'll up the ante a little bit.

With the following examples I know exactly what one of these is made from, with the other five I can quote the consensus of opinion that comes from four very experienced people. With these other five there is no certainty, because none of the people involved saw the material being made, there is only an opinion that represents a total of around 200 years total experience in the field of Javanese keris.

Anybody want to name what we have here?

David · 15th June 2010, 01:16 AM

Brilliant thread gentlemen.

kai · 15th June 2010, 07:30 AM

Ok, I'll bite...

All except #3 appear to be mlumah (viewing only a small part of the blade makes pinning down miring-type pamor which looks like mlumah tough).

All except #4 have the typical Jawa surface and without additional hints from the whole blade, I could only guess which is genuinely old and which received treatment to artificially age it... #4 seems to have been extensively reground/repolished with a little bit of prior corrosion still left at places - doesn't look like Alan's work though.

#2-6 all appear to be forged with nickel or high nickel alloys of whatever source. #1 could possibly be phosphorous iron (or low-nickel alloy?) but the many pamor layers make it tough to get a clear picture of the utilized materials.

#3 has interesting pamor material - meteoric from a Javanese perspective? Also the iron utilized looks interesting; and old. (Or does the heavy etching fool me?

Maybe in #1 and #5 the iron got washed more extensively prior to doing the pamor. Or rather mild steel?

All in all, I like #1 and #3 best.

Regards,
Kai

kai · 15th June 2010, 02:50 PM

Let's hear some more opinions, folks!

Thanks for the exercise, Alan!

A. G. Maisey · 15th June 2010, 03:38 PM

Thanks for coming to the party Kai.

I'm not going to hand out the drinks yet, I'd like a few more people through the door first.

Neo · 17th June 2010, 12:53 PM

I have been trying my best to post some opinion, but apparently most of my efforts have mostly been at DIGESTING the bulk of rich, new information here

It will probably be another week or two of going back and forth between reading book and looking at the images again in my spare time before I can post any learned opinion aside from wild guess ... So I just decide to throw in the white towel from my corner to avoid being rude (because I started this thread) ...

Meanwhile, I completely don't mind if we wait for some more informed folks to join the party before Mr. Maisey hands out the drink

A. G. Maisey · 17th June 2010, 02:39 PM

I'd really like Graham to come back and try to knock the duckies down.

Graham is a man with knowledge and experience in this field and I believe his opinion is probably as close to as good as anybody is going to give, who has not had very close experience with the Javanese keris world.

I'll let it go a little bit longer, but I must admit that for a thread which seems to be drawing some attention, I'm a little disappointed that so few people are prepared to give an opinion.

This whole exercise is not about being right or wrong.

It is not about trying to impart information, because what we see in these pictures will not necessarily give a guide to what we might see in other pictures. In effect, the pics are pretty close to useless as a vehicle of knowledge.

It is about trying to demonstrate that pictures are simply not good enough to learn this subject from.

14th June 2010, 02:11 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	OK. That was the easy stuff :- pamor that I knew exactly what it was. Now we'll up the ante a little bit. With the following examples I know exactly what one of these is made from, with the other five I can quote the consensus of opinion that comes from four very experienced people. With these other five there is no certainty, because none of the people involved saw the material being made, there is only an opinion that represents a total of around 200 years total experience in the field of Javanese keris. Anybody want to name what we have here? Attached Images

15th June 2010, 01:16 AM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Brilliant thread gentlemen.

15th June 2010, 07:30 AM	#3
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Ok, I'll bite... All except #3 appear to be mlumah (viewing only a small part of the blade makes pinning down miring-type pamor which looks like mlumah tough). All except #4 have the typical Jawa surface and without additional hints from the whole blade, I could only guess which is genuinely old and which received treatment to artificially age it... #4 seems to have been extensively reground/repolished with a little bit of prior corrosion still left at places - doesn't look like Alan's work though. #2-6 all appear to be forged with nickel or high nickel alloys of whatever source. #1 could possibly be phosphorous iron (or low-nickel alloy?) but the many pamor layers make it tough to get a clear picture of the utilized materials. #3 has interesting pamor material - meteoric from a Javanese perspective? Also the iron utilized looks interesting; and old. (Or does the heavy etching fool me? Maybe in #1 and #5 the iron got washed more extensively prior to doing the pamor. Or rather mild steel? All in all, I like #1 and #3 best. Regards, Kai Last edited by kai; 15th June 2010 at 02:49 PM.

15th June 2010, 02:50 PM	#4
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Let's hear some more opinions, folks! Thanks for the exercise, Alan!

15th June 2010, 03:38 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Thanks for coming to the party Kai. I'm not going to hand out the drinks yet, I'd like a few more people through the door first.

17th June 2010, 12:53 PM	#6
Neo Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 59	I have been trying my best to post some opinion, but apparently most of my efforts have mostly been at DIGESTING the bulk of rich, new information here It will probably be another week or two of going back and forth between reading book and looking at the images again in my spare time before I can post any learned opinion aside from wild guess ... So I just decide to throw in the white towel from my corner to avoid being rude (because I started this thread) ... Meanwhile, I completely don't mind if we wait for some more informed folks to join the party before Mr. Maisey hands out the drink

17th June 2010, 02:39 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	I'd really like Graham to come back and try to knock the duckies down. Graham is a man with knowledge and experience in this field and I believe his opinion is probably as close to as good as anybody is going to give, who has not had very close experience with the Javanese keris world. I'll let it go a little bit longer, but I must admit that for a thread which seems to be drawing some attention, I'm a little disappointed that so few people are prepared to give an opinion. This whole exercise is not about being right or wrong. It is not about trying to impart information, because what we see in these pictures will not necessarily give a guide to what we might see in other pictures. In effect, the pics are pretty close to useless as a vehicle of knowledge. It is about trying to demonstrate that pictures are simply not good enough to learn this subject from.