Antique Jade Sword

Tim Simmons · 13th June 2010, 07:12 PM

What ever that is on the blade you really should clean it off with some steel wool and oil. Where it is very dark one would expect to see considerable pitting. Then we need to see it again.

Atlantia · 13th June 2010, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

What ever that is on the blade you really should clean it off with some steel wool and oil. Where it is very dark one would expect to see considerable pitting. Then we need to see it again.

LOL, should just mention that its best to use the really fine steel wool if you are going to

That '00' painters grade stuff.
Not brillo pads

I do think its a very attractive sword BTW Mario.
And welcome to the forums of course

cmario88 · 15th June 2010, 07:22 PM

Until I find out more about this sword cleaning is out of the question, especially by me. Tim Simmons the dark areas are rather deeply pitted IMO anyway. Atlanta, Thank you, someone went to a lot of trouble to make this and I agree it is beautiful. The materials used such as the jade pieces are authentic, for example the jade on the handle has been describe by 2 experts as coming from ancient Neolithic times possibly the Shang Dynasty (1766-1122 B.C.), the Dragon center piece is white Hetian Jade which to my understanding has become exceeding rare because of its depletion. I was also told because of the turquoise and coral pieces its most probable place of origin or manufacturing would be in Tibet, since it is not commonly used in China. As you can see I am still doing research and hope in time will get a better understanding of what I have. Looking forward to more input and truly appreciate the replies so far. I’m really searching for answers and whether they are bad or good I’m learning much about history, jade, swords, etc. Bottom line I’m having a lot of fun, which is after all why we are all here. If more pictures are needed let me know. Again Thanks

Bryan.H · 19th June 2010, 05:31 PM

What's with the stain/ discolouration on the blade? This looks chemically treated somehow to me. With so many 'antique' swords being made in Guandong on a daily basis and sold to unsuspecting round-eyes, it's difficult not to be sceptical about edged weapons coming out of China.

Philip · 20th June 2010, 07:16 AM

Gentlemen,
Nothing about this piece really "adds up". First off, this "Certificate of Authenticity" is issued by a merchant's association in Hong Kong. Not by a legitimate and accredited museum, or the Ministry of Culture but by a ... (ahem!) group of guys who are in the business of selling antiques, tshatshkes, curios, and the like to whomever would buy them. In the Shoppers' Paradise of the Orient, no less. Yuanzhumin has hit it on the head in his post: this document is a pot that won't hold water.

The shape of the blade has no relation to any jian which I have seen from the Han Dynasty onward. The notable reduction in width as it approaches the rather acute tip is a contour that is taken from the classic bronze swords of the Zhou Dynasty's Warring States Period. Yet this blade is made of iron or steel, and has a simple lozenge cross-section (as is the case of jian made during the medieval and late imperial periods), without the complex bevels, sunken panels, and ridgelines in relief that are characteristic of the bronze blades of classical antiquity. The fellow who conceived this blade tried to cover the span of history in one blade and as Genghis Cohen might have said, "me ken nisht zitsn af tsvey shtuln mit eyn tokhes".

The fittings are likewise a stylistic mishmosh. There are these gilt bands with archaistic elements in relief, as seen on Shang and Zhou bronzes. The chape is patterned after those on jian scabbards from the Zhou and Han periods. Next to the gilded elements is silverwork with motifs similar to those seen on Tibetan objects (such as knife-sheaths, tinder-pouches, bowls, pitchers, etc.), with the characteristic turquoises and corals.

I first saw these in Hong Kong in the 1970s, shopkeepers all said at that time that these were "Mongolian knives and swords". One problem -- in all of the period photos I've seen depicting Mongolia and its people, not one of these swords shows up. The Los Angeles County Museum of Art has a single-edged example which is captioned as "Tibetan" in the display cabinet. Again, an exhaustive hunt for documentary ethnographic photos, or provenanced examples in museums, has turned up zilch. And interestingly, nothing remotely similar was included in the definitive exhibition "Warriors of the Himalayas" mounted by the Metropolitan Mus. of Art in 2006 using material from collections in several countries.

These are curio items, composites made of associated materials : antique jades and other hardstones of varying age, blades which were either freshly made (usually quite crudely) or recycled from broken antique Chinese and Japanese swords, and silver parts crafted for the purpose. It's believed that most of these came from Beijing. Silversmiths there were familiar with Tibetan styles of silverwork because a fair amount of the metalwork used by Tibetans was in fact made in China for the export trade.

Some of these sword-like objects are "fairly old" because I've seen a few which have a provenance of sorts -- estate pieces traceable to military or diplomatic service (usually as gifts to US personnel in China before or during WW II). One piece of this sort I remember seeing at a gun show was a jian that had virtually no patina to speak of (having been well-stored in a gun case for years) and fake Qianlong reign marks on the blade that were something of a bad joke. I also saw brand-new ones for sale at the Beijing "Friendship Stores" in 1979 and '81, and similar albeit poorer-quality ones offered for sale in Shanhaiguan in 1998.

cmario88 · 22nd June 2010, 06:09 PM

Philip, Thank you on your reply to my "curio" and I say that with a smile. I'm waiting for responses from a few other sources and would like to wait before commenting on your assessment. Again thank you.

Nathaniel · 23rd June 2010, 03:08 AM

Mario,

Philip would be the one of the top authorities on Chinese swords (Google it)...notice the rest of us can tell you it's a fake...but Philip can give you the details....several members on the forum have been collecting for a long time...and have seen what has come around.

The more recent fakes coming out of China are getting better and better at first glance...but still have such a crazy mix motifs send red flags....like Philip said...things just don't add up.

And also to answer your one question regarding the specific forum:

Note the file at the top:

刀剑天下论坛 HFsword.com Forums » 假冒伪劣 Fake Sword Forum

http://hfsword.com/bbs/forumdisplay.php?fid=8

15th June 2010, 07:22 PM	#3
cmario88 Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 8	More info. Jade Sword Until I find out more about this sword cleaning is out of the question, especially by me. Tim Simmons the dark areas are rather deeply pitted IMO anyway. Atlanta, Thank you, someone went to a lot of trouble to make this and I agree it is beautiful. The materials used such as the jade pieces are authentic, for example the jade on the handle has been describe by 2 experts as coming from ancient Neolithic times possibly the Shang Dynasty (1766-1122 B.C.), the Dragon center piece is white Hetian Jade which to my understanding has become exceeding rare because of its depletion. I was also told because of the turquoise and coral pieces its most probable place of origin or manufacturing would be in Tibet, since it is not commonly used in China. As you can see I am still doing research and hope in time will get a better understanding of what I have. Looking forward to more input and truly appreciate the replies so far. I’m really searching for answers and whether they are bad or good I’m learning much about history, jade, swords, etc. Bottom line I’m having a lot of fun, which is after all why we are all here. If more pictures are needed let me know. Again Thanks

20th June 2010, 07:16 AM	#5
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	It all depends on how you define "old", I guess Gentlemen, Nothing about this piece really "adds up". First off, this "Certificate of Authenticity" is issued by a merchant's association in Hong Kong. Not by a legitimate and accredited museum, or the Ministry of Culture but by a ... (ahem!) group of guys who are in the business of selling antiques, tshatshkes, curios, and the like to whomever would buy them. In the Shoppers' Paradise of the Orient, no less. Yuanzhumin has hit it on the head in his post: this document is a pot that won't hold water. The shape of the blade has no relation to any jian which I have seen from the Han Dynasty onward. The notable reduction in width as it approaches the rather acute tip is a contour that is taken from the classic bronze swords of the Zhou Dynasty's Warring States Period. Yet this blade is made of iron or steel, and has a simple lozenge cross-section (as is the case of jian made during the medieval and late imperial periods), without the complex bevels, sunken panels, and ridgelines in relief that are characteristic of the bronze blades of classical antiquity. The fellow who conceived this blade tried to cover the span of history in one blade and as Genghis Cohen might have said, "me ken nisht zitsn af tsvey shtuln mit eyn tokhes". The fittings are likewise a stylistic mishmosh. There are these gilt bands with archaistic elements in relief, as seen on Shang and Zhou bronzes. The chape is patterned after those on jian scabbards from the Zhou and Han periods. Next to the gilded elements is silverwork with motifs similar to those seen on Tibetan objects (such as knife-sheaths, tinder-pouches, bowls, pitchers, etc.), with the characteristic turquoises and corals. I first saw these in Hong Kong in the 1970s, shopkeepers all said at that time that these were "Mongolian knives and swords". One problem -- in all of the period photos I've seen depicting Mongolia and its people, not one of these swords shows up. The Los Angeles County Museum of Art has a single-edged example which is captioned as "Tibetan" in the display cabinet. Again, an exhaustive hunt for documentary ethnographic photos, or provenanced examples in museums, has turned up zilch. And interestingly, nothing remotely similar was included in the definitive exhibition "Warriors of the Himalayas" mounted by the Metropolitan Mus. of Art in 2006 using material from collections in several countries. These are curio items, composites made of associated materials : antique jades and other hardstones of varying age, blades which were either freshly made (usually quite crudely) or recycled from broken antique Chinese and Japanese swords, and silver parts crafted for the purpose. It's believed that most of these came from Beijing. Silversmiths there were familiar with Tibetan styles of silverwork because a fair amount of the metalwork used by Tibetans was in fact made in China for the export trade. Some of these sword-like objects are "fairly old" because I've seen a few which have a provenance of sorts -- estate pieces traceable to military or diplomatic service (usually as gifts to US personnel in China before or during WW II). One piece of this sort I remember seeing at a gun show was a jian that had virtually no patina to speak of (having been well-stored in a gun case for years) and fake Qianlong reign marks on the blade that were something of a bad joke. I also saw brand-new ones for sale at the Beijing "Friendship Stores" in 1979 and '81, and similar albeit poorer-quality ones offered for sale in Shanhaiguan in 1998.

22nd June 2010, 06:09 PM	#6
cmario88 Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 8	Thank you Philip, Thank you on your reply to my "curio" and I say that with a smile. I'm waiting for responses from a few other sources and would like to wait before commenting on your assessment. Again thank you.

23rd June 2010, 03:08 AM	#7
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	Mario, Philip would be the one of the top authorities on Chinese swords (Google it)...notice the rest of us can tell you it's a fake...but Philip can give you the details....several members on the forum have been collecting for a long time...and have seen what has come around. The more recent fakes coming out of China are getting better and better at first glance...but still have such a crazy mix motifs send red flags....like Philip said...things just don't add up. And also to answer your one question regarding the specific forum: Note the file at the top: 刀剑天下论坛 HFsword.com Forums » 假冒伪劣 Fake Sword Forum http://hfsword.com/bbs/forumdisplay.php?fid=8 Last edited by Nathaniel; 23rd June 2010 at 03:29 AM.

13th June 2010, 07:12 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,855	What ever that is on the blade you really should clean it off with some steel wool and oil. Where it is very dark one would expect to see considerable pitting. Then we need to see it again.

19th June 2010, 05:31 PM	#4
Bryan.H Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Australia Posts: 51	What's with the stain/ discolouration on the blade? This looks chemically treated somehow to me. With so many 'antique' swords being made in Guandong on a daily basis and sold to unsuspecting round-eyes, it's difficult not to be sceptical about edged weapons coming out of China.