Need example of Pamors: Meteor, Luwu, and modern Nickel

[lemmythesmith]

Hi Alan, I'll have a go............ at getting them wrong.

A-mlumah, iron/nickel. Iron not washed too much.
B-mlumah, meteoric-looks similar in texture and colour to one I did.
C-mlumah, mild and nickel.
D-mlumah, iron, nickel. Iron looks extensively washed and refined.
E-miring, iron, nickel. Iron not washed too much.

Regards, Graham.

[A. G. Maisey]

Thank you very much for your response Graham.

You are the most knowledgeable person likely to respond to this question, so I won't delay my response.However, I will make this comment:- your experience is filling in the gaps that cannot be seen in the images --- I do exactly the same thing:- I see things that are not there in the image, because I instinctively know they are there in the object. Somebody lacking our level of experience does not have this advantage.

As would be expected, some of it you've got right, but some of it you're a bit off track with.

This reinforces the point I was trying to make:- images are not good enough to learn from. Yes, they can help, but you need the hands-on experience.

Here is what these pamors are:-

A--- the contrasting material in this is pure nickel, the iron is very hot short tyre . It started as very large pieces of tyre that were not washed at all, and the nickel was welded straight in, it then went through the washing process until it did not throw off sparks, plus a couple of extra welds --- this material was absolutely clean and tight when the core was welded in --- but the nickel had run up into the cracks caused by the hotshortness of the iron. This pamor material was doubled and welded in excess of 12 times.Following completion, this blade was soaked in an erosive medium to give an aged look to the surface.

B--- yes, meteoritic. The meteor was from Arizona and was many small pieces; I welded these many small pieces into one solid , clean lump, this was then combined with iron that came from an old bridge, and that combination of meteoritic material and old iron formed the pamor. This blade was soaked in an erosive medium.

C--- yes, mild and nickel. The mild was bought as second hand material in Solo, and my memory of it is that it was from some sort of old, heavy strapping. It was not washed at all.Yes, mlumah.This blade was not soaked in an erosive medium but was washed heavily with lime juice.

D--- the material used in this blade is exactly the same as the material used in "C", again, not washed at all, however, it is not mlumah, it is miring. It started life as lawe setukal, but did not survive the forging, so the grains realigned and it looks like mlumah.This blade was not exposed to any erosive medium at all, it was only stained.

E--- the contrasting material in this is an iron/nickel alloy; I have forgotten the analysis of the alloy; it was something used in the factory where my son was working at the time; the iron is high quality carriage strapping, it is wrought iron, and it was washed heavily, ie, more than 7 times folded and welded. The orientation is miring. This blade was given a light wash with hydrochloric acid.

I have two other blades that have material judged to be meteoritic material according to Javanese standards. "B" above, and the other two blades all look different, one from the other.

I have had blades with pamor that was judged to have been made from Dutch coins. This pamor looks exactly like meteoritic pamor in respect of colour, disregard the texture in example "B", because that is the product surface manipulation and etching. But the difference between the Dutch coin pamor and the meteoritic pamor is that the coin pamor is smooth and greasy to the touch, the meteoritic pamor is "prickly" to the touch.

I have in my possession and have seen pamors made from bicycle spokes, motorbike exhausts, bicycle rims --- and various other materials. All these oddly assorted materials can look like one or another of the old traditional materials of high phosphoric iron, or coins, or pamor luwu, or meteorite.

I've been misled by a first impression many times, and that's with the blade in my hand.

Images on a computer screen, or even in hard copy, are just not good enough.

[Neo]

It's a jaw-dropping learning experience ... I now see that my perception of things has been wayyyyy too simple. I deduce from friends and books that meteoric pamor will have shades of gray and brighter tones instead of a uniform, almost evenly distributed color.

So, based on my novice-level understanding, I was prepared to guess that either A, B, and C are some sort of modern nickel aloy while D and E are possibly natural meteoric ... Prior to your post, I have totally NO IDEA how mild and nickel and iron and nickel will look like when being used as pamor.

I need quite some time just to properly absorb the material you presented in this thread alone ... The last time I met with Pak Haryono he said it would be a good idea to create a graduate study program in kerisology. NOW I understand the need for such idea!! Many many thanks for your information. It's time to turn off the PC and make some calls to improve my network

[Marcokeris]

I agree: many many thanks for your information

[A. G. Maisey]

OK.

That was the easy stuff :- pamor that I knew exactly what it was.

Now we'll up the ante a little bit.

With the following examples I know exactly what one of these is made from, with the other five I can quote the consensus of opinion that comes from four very experienced people. With these other five there is no certainty, because none of the people involved saw the material being made, there is only an opinion that represents a total of around 200 years total experience in the field of Javanese keris.

Anybody want to name what we have here?

[David]

Brilliant thread gentlemen.

[kai]

Ok, I'll bite...

All except #3 appear to be mlumah (viewing only a small part of the blade makes pinning down miring-type pamor which looks like mlumah tough).

All except #4 have the typical Jawa surface and without additional hints from the whole blade, I could only guess which is genuinely old and which received treatment to artificially age it... #4 seems to have been extensively reground/repolished with a little bit of prior corrosion still left at places - doesn't look like Alan's work though.

#2-6 all appear to be forged with nickel or high nickel alloys of whatever source. #1 could possibly be phosphorous iron (or low-nickel alloy?) but the many pamor layers make it tough to get a clear picture of the utilized materials.

#3 has interesting pamor material - meteoric from a Javanese perspective? Also the iron utilized looks interesting; and old. (Or does the heavy etching fool me?

Maybe in #1 and #5 the iron got washed more extensively prior to doing the pamor. Or rather mild steel?

All in all, I like #1 and #3 best.

Regards,
Kai