17thC relic Rapier saved?

Matchlock · 11th June 2010, 01:54 AM

My dear Honored Gentleman Jim,

Again nobody could have possibly summarized it nearly as well as you did!

We've always felt like strong brother bats ready to get outa hell, and danm' it didn't we?!

Thankin' you so much for makin' me blush one more time, my big boss and dear friend out there on Route 66,
and with all my heartfelt greetings from far off Lower Bavaria:
Yours truly,
Michael, Mike, Mikey, Mickey, Mikhail, Miguel, Michel, Michl (Bavarian!)

fernando · 11th June 2010, 01:33 PM

So it's MICHL

.
Why you never told us ?

Nando

Matchlock · 11th June 2010, 02:05 PM

Sorry, Fernando, for keeping my Bavarian nickname secret for so long!

Best,
Michl

Matchlock · 11th June 2010, 02:14 PM

After discussing Gene's Pappenheimer with my sword collecting friend I must ask whether the blade is one edged. If that is so, and telling by the hilt, it seems that ca. 1645 (late Thirty Years War) would be a more accurate date.

Best,
Michael

katana · 11th June 2010, 02:29 PM

Great thread Gentlemen

.

Nice one Gene.....I love 'relic' pieces.....

Have you decided to what extent, you are going to clean this ? I would certainly consider (if it was mine) making a wooden handle (in 2 halves) and fixing with a wire wrap. No adhesive....so that the handle is not permanently fixed and could be removed without damage to the tang.

All the best
David

Oh by the way, hows your 'other' aquisition doing.....( the two legged, two armed type .... I mean

)

fernando · 11th June 2010, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

...Oh by the way, hows your 'other' aquisition doing.....( the two legged, two armed type .... I mean

)

.

katana · 11th June 2010, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

.

Hi 'Nando

,
I still remember when I was a 'new' father.....my 'acquistions' needed constant cleaning.....surprised they never rusted with all the 'moisture' they produced (and 'stored' in their nappies ) ....and as I recall the only state of 'preservation' required was my own 'sanity' after all the late night ...and very early morning feeding and nappy changes

Regards David

celtan · 11th June 2010, 07:44 PM

Forgot Mikhail..!

Back in the 48s, everytime I went to any of those fast food places where they announce your name through speakers, they kept mangling my name: From lordly and dignified Manuel, to ManuAl, Menhuel, Minguel etc..

So I ended up adopting Michael as a less troublesome alternative.

It got to the point when those who I lunched with ended up calling me Michael (et al) instead of my wonderful name, which BTW, they knew well..!

Could it be that the name Michael is more popular than Manuel..?

Nah ! Silly thought..!

: )

BTW, when _we_ use Olive Oil to preserve muskets, the barrel ends up becoming dark after a while, and it doesn't lighten its shade at all.

There are a couple forumites that are converse withthe methods to dismount and repair hilts, it would be very interesting to do a thread on te subject.

LBNL Did I understand than Nando became a Dad? Or is this figuratively speaking, on account of the new toy?

Best

superM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

My dear Honored Gentleman Jim,

Again nobody could have possibly summarized it nearly as well as you did!

We've always felt like strong brother bats ready to get outa hell, and danm' it didn't we?!

Thankin' you so much for makin' me blush one more time, my big boss and dear friend out there on Route 66,
and with all my heartfelt greetings from far off Lower Bavaria:
Yours truly,
Michael, Mike, Mikey, Mickey, Miguel, Michel, Michl (Bavarian!)

Matchlock · 11th June 2010, 08:27 PM

Hi SuperManuel,

(I certainly won't go corrupting your both lordly and heavenly name!

You are perfectly right - how could I forget Mikhail? So I edited that post right away and added that version. Hope for your greatful forgiveness for this one time ...

Yeah, a thread on dismantling rapiers sounds like a great idea but I am afraid I am not the chosen one to do that. I never dismantle pommels or wire bindings. When they have obviously been together for hundreds of years that would seem a sacrilege to me. Leave untouched objects just the way they have been handed down to us, that's always been my credo.

Best,
Mikhail

Philip · 12th June 2010, 07:10 AM

I heard some very disturbing words here, such as "remove the pommel". PLEASE DON'T! Conceivably, there will be a situation sometime in which a pommel has to be taken off, I've had to do it in my restoration practice, but I can see that this is not the time for it since a gentleman has previously given a wonderful suggestion -- if you want to put a handle on this hilt to make the piece "complete", then simply install two shaped pieces of wood with the leather and wire overlay in period style. The wooden halves can be held together with houselhold glue or some simple adhesive to make the thing easy to handle during subsequent leather- and wire-work, but should not be glued directly to the tang in case a subsequent owner wants to remove it.

The peening of the tang into the "mushroom" over the pommel, and the subsequent rusting and patination of the surface, is a testament to the time that has passed since the sword was last fitted-up. This historical record will be destroyed if the tang is filed or ground to allow the pommel to slide off. There is also the issue of having enough metal protruding from the pommel when the hilt is eventually re-assembled, let's just not go there for now. It is possible to patinate a newly re-peened tang but the results, though better than bare metal, are never as satisfying as that which has seen the passage of centuries. For this reason, I am also loathe to clean sword tangs down to bare metal (the Japanese are truly anal-retentive about this and de-rusting a tang down to bare iron will destroy the value of a blade in their eyes). Remove active corrosion but leave the patina intact. Blades get cleaned, polished, sharpened, refinished during their working lives, but the tang tends to remain undisturbed in the hilt and the signs of age that are evident in this area should remain if at all possible.

celtan · 12th June 2010, 01:22 PM

Hi Philip,

Never fear, that's not_exactly_ what I had in mind. I agree with everything you said.

OTOH, I have obtained several swords with ruined grip covers and wiring which don't seem to ever have had a preened tang. I suspect the hilt is held together by some type of internal metal hook coupled to expansion of the guard. That's the specific example I should have provided.

I owned a rare Danish Hussard Saber which I had to let go, because I hated the sight of its crumbling leather grip and broken/loose grip wires. I also own a swedish naval saber, lovely in its simplicity and form, but everytime I hold it in my hand, the wire is further damaged. LBNL, I have a huge swedish M1831 saber, which I wanted to use on 18th C Historical reenactments, showing the same problem. I also have a strange english shortsword, found in Westminster's House of Commons after a Luftwaffe attack, which has its fish-skin grip cover crumbling away. All very sad pictures to me, I wish I could fix them.

The following pics have nothing to do with my swords, just the type of grips I was writing about.

Cheers

merelyM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philip

I heard some very disturbing words here, such as "remove the pommel". PLEASE DON'T! Conceivably, there will be a situation sometime in which a pommel has to be taken off, I've had to do it in my restoration practice, but I can see that this is not the time for it since a gentleman has previously given a wonderful suggestion -- if you want to put a handle on this hilt to make the piece "complete", then simply install two shaped pieces of wood with the leather and wire overlay in period style. The wooden halves can be held together with houselhold glue or some simple adhesive to make the thing easy to handle during subsequent leather- and wire-work, but should not be glued directly to the tang in case a subsequent owner wants to remove it.

The peening of the tang into the "mushroom" over the pommel, and the subsequent rusting and patination of the surface, is a testament to the time that has passed since the sword was last fitted-up. This historical record will be destroyed if the tang is filed or ground to allow the pommel to slide off. There is also the issue of having enough metal protruding from the pommel when the hilt is eventually re-assembled, let's just not go there for now. It is possible to patinate a newly re-peened tang but the results, though better than bare metal, are never as satisfying as that which has seen the passage of centuries. For this reason, I am also loathe to clean sword tangs down to bare metal (the Japanese are truly anal-retentive about this and de-rusting a tang down to bare iron will destroy the value of a blade in their eyes). Remove active corrosion but leave the patina intact. Blades get cleaned, polished, sharpened, refinished during their working lives, but the tang tends to remain undisturbed in the hilt and the signs of age that are evident in this area should remain if at all possible.

fernando · 12th June 2010, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by celtan

... Did I understand than Nando became a Dad? Or is this figuratively speaking, on account of the new toy? ...

i meant the real thing, but that was 32 years ago

celtan · 12th June 2010, 12:50 PM

Well. Belated congrats nonetheless..!

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

i meant the real thing, but that was 32 years ago

fernando · 12th June 2010, 01:17 PM

This not being the case but, is there no tolerance for screw pommels?
If not, i confess i am a sinner

. I had this cup hilted sword with both easily unscrewable knuckle guard fixation and pommel. I culdn't resist the temptation to dismount them, to better discern the maker's marks on the ricasso.
The result was positive on the mark visualization, and no visible harm occurred with the hilt patina

Fernando

celtan · 12th June 2010, 01:28 PM

Albricias, Don Fernando,

I do that routinely to my nazi daggers, and I understand its a common procedure with threaded pommels.

Best

M

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

This not being the case but, is there no tolerance for screw pommels?
If not, i confess i am a sinner

. I had this hilt with both easily unscrewable knuckle guard fixation and pommel. I culdn't resist the temptation to dismount them, to better discern the maker's marks on the ricasso.
The result was positive on the mark visualization, and no visible harm occurred with the hilt patina

Fernando

Atlantia · 12th June 2010, 08:36 PM

Hello Gentlemen, let me answer in turn (and huge thanks to all)

Michael,
Thank you for you kind words and advice.
The silicon is 'silicon carbide paper' (wet and dry) so just to even out the rust really.
the Blade is double edged (definately) although it may have been accentuated by surface loss, the blade is sharp almost all the way up.

Jim,
Thank you, but we all just follow your lead sir

David,
I really don't know to be truthful.

Whatever happens, I need to clean the loose rust off, and conserve it. If I keep it I would do exactly as you say with the handle, but to be honest, I usually find that I can't keep relics for long, I find the condition 'issues' niggle away at me.
As for baby Alex, he is still keeping us awake at nights, but he's doing well and is an absolute joy. Thank you for asking

Manuel

David meant me, I became a dad 6 months ago for the first time.

Philip,
Never fear, I don't see any need to remove the pommel from this sword.

Nando,
A father 32 years ago? Is he sleeping through the night yet?

-After 6 months the sleep depravation seems endless.

11th June 2010, 01:54 AM	#1
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	My dear Honored Gentleman Jim, Again nobody could have possibly summarized it nearly as well as you did! We've always felt like strong brother bats ready to get outa hell, and danm' it didn't we?! Thankin' you so much for makin' me blush one more time, my big boss and dear friend out there on Route 66, and with all my heartfelt greetings from far off Lower Bavaria: Yours truly, Michael, Mike, Mikey, Mickey, Mikhail, Miguel, Michel, Michl (Bavarian!) Last edited by Matchlock; 11th June 2010 at 08:10 PM.

11th June 2010, 02:14 PM	#4
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Slight correction of dating After discussing Gene's Pappenheimer with my sword collecting friend I must ask whether the blade is one edged. If that is so, and telling by the hilt, it seems that ca. 1645 (late Thirty Years War) would be a more accurate date. Best, Michael

12th June 2010, 07:10 AM	#10
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	Oy, cholileh! I heard some very disturbing words here, such as "remove the pommel". PLEASE DON'T! Conceivably, there will be a situation sometime in which a pommel has to be taken off, I've had to do it in my restoration practice, but I can see that this is not the time for it since a gentleman has previously given a wonderful suggestion -- if you want to put a handle on this hilt to make the piece "complete", then simply install two shaped pieces of wood with the leather and wire overlay in period style. The wooden halves can be held together with houselhold glue or some simple adhesive to make the thing easy to handle during subsequent leather- and wire-work, but should not be glued directly to the tang in case a subsequent owner wants to remove it. The peening of the tang into the "mushroom" over the pommel, and the subsequent rusting and patination of the surface, is a testament to the time that has passed since the sword was last fitted-up. This historical record will be destroyed if the tang is filed or ground to allow the pommel to slide off. There is also the issue of having enough metal protruding from the pommel when the hilt is eventually re-assembled, let's just not go there for now. It is possible to patinate a newly re-peened tang but the results, though better than bare metal, are never as satisfying as that which has seen the passage of centuries. For this reason, I am also loathe to clean sword tangs down to bare metal (the Japanese are truly anal-retentive about this and de-rusting a tang down to bare iron will destroy the value of a blade in their eyes). Remove active corrosion but leave the patina intact. Blades get cleaned, polished, sharpened, refinished during their working lives, but the tang tends to remain undisturbed in the hilt and the signs of age that are evident in this area should remain if at all possible.

12th June 2010, 01:17 PM	#14
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	pommel removal This not being the case but, is there no tolerance for screw pommels? If not, i confess i am a sinner . I had this cup hilted sword with both easily unscrewable knuckle guard fixation and pommel. I culdn't resist the temptation to dismount them, to better discern the maker's marks on the ricasso. The result was positive on the mark visualization, and no visible harm occurred with the hilt patina Fernando Last edited by fernando; 12th June 2010 at 01:54 PM. Reason: correction

11th June 2010, 01:33 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	So it's MICHL . Why you never told us ? Nando

11th June 2010, 02:05 PM	#3
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Sorry, Fernando, for keeping my Bavarian nickname secret for so long! Best, Michl

11th June 2010, 02:29 PM	#5
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Great thread Gentlemen . Nice one Gene.....I love 'relic' pieces..... Have you decided to what extent, you are going to clean this ? I would certainly consider (if it was mine) making a wooden handle (in 2 halves) and fixing with a wire wrap. No adhesive....so that the handle is not permanently fixed and could be removed without damage to the tang. All the best David Oh by the way, hows your 'other' aquisition doing.....( the two legged, two armed type .... I mean )

11th June 2010, 08:27 PM	#9
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi SuperManuel, (I certainly won't go corrupting your both lordly and heavenly name! You are perfectly right - how could I forget Mikhail? So I edited that post right away and added that version. Hope for your greatful forgiveness for this one time ... Yeah, a thread on dismantling rapiers sounds like a great idea but I am afraid I am not the chosen one to do that. I never dismantle pommels or wire bindings. When they have obviously been together for hundreds of years that would seem a sacrilege to me. Leave untouched objects just the way they have been handed down to us, that's always been my credo. Best, Mikhail

12th June 2010, 08:36 PM	#16
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Hello Gentlemen, let me answer in turn (and huge thanks to all) Michael, Thank you for you kind words and advice. The silicon is 'silicon carbide paper' (wet and dry) so just to even out the rust really. the Blade is double edged (definately) although it may have been accentuated by surface loss, the blade is sharp almost all the way up. Jim, Thank you, but we all just follow your lead sir David, I really don't know to be truthful. Whatever happens, I need to clean the loose rust off, and conserve it. If I keep it I would do exactly as you say with the handle, but to be honest, I usually find that I can't keep relics for long, I find the condition 'issues' niggle away at me. As for baby Alex, he is still keeping us awake at nights, but he's doing well and is an absolute joy. Thank you for asking Manuel David meant me, I became a dad 6 months ago for the first time. Philip, Never fear, I don't see any need to remove the pommel from this sword. Nando, A father 32 years ago? Is he sleeping through the night yet? -After 6 months the sleep depravation seems endless.