Baskethilt

Jeff D · 6th June 2005, 12:29 AM

Hi Jim,

Thank you for sharing your excellent research. Since we originally discussed this I have constantly been looking for these stars and moons. They are very prominent on later 18th century English military weapons with German blades. 1788's (top) and 1796's (second from top). I have pasted a few of the examples I have found. I suspect Castle's observations are regarding civilian weapons.
If I find any pre 1750's with the etched symbols this will be the first place I will paste them.

Thanks again Jim!
Jeff

Jim McDougall · 6th June 2005, 04:29 AM

Hi Jeff,
Outstanding examples!!! Thanks very much for posting them!
We'll keep looking OK? There must be examples out there of blades that may be early 18th century with such markings (still curious on Wagners illustrations of Munich examples with his very early period of activity).
Also have yet to see actual examples of the Spanish blades mentioned.
All the best,
Jim

Jeff D · 6th June 2005, 04:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Also have yet to see actual examples of the Spanish blades mentioned.
Jim

Hi Jim,

You might find this thread interesting; http://forums.swordforum.com/showthr...threadid=50438

All the Best
Jeff

fernando · 6th June 2005, 08:57 PM

sorry to interfere.
this motto would reflect a symbolic oath usually made the Knights Templars.
its engraving in swords blades, which became a fashion for so long, might or should have been at a later stage, but probably earlier than late XVII century ...
i have a serious little book, including a spanish sword of the late XVI century,
already with this wording.

Jim McDougall · 6th June 2005, 09:55 PM

Hi Fernando,
Thats outstanding!!! Could you please tell us more on that, as western sources have extremely little on this motto, and if you would please cite source for association to Knights Templar. The wording sounds very chivalrous and your note seems entirely plausible, but we need source for reference. Thank you very much for adding this information

All the best,
Jim

P.S. Its great to hear from you!! Long time since we talked!!

Jeff D · 7th June 2005, 04:51 AM

Hi Fernando,

Thanks for the information. Like Jim I would love to check the reference. As an aside, here is a inscription I know you will like. It is "Viva de Portugal", sorry about the picture as the sword is in storage and I had to use an old photo.

Thanks again.
Jeff

fernando · 7th June 2005, 07:57 PM

hi Jim
allways a pleasure.
for a start, you have the following:

http://www3.tky.3web.ne.jp/~jafarr/s...symbolism.html

this site is related to masonry lecturing. but if you browse the net using the motto as the key, you will find several other pages, further masonry ones included, all giving account of the motto origin, in precisely the same manner. there seems to be no doubt about this.
we know that blade word engraving started very early, with all kinds of sayings and mottos. what is to be known is, if this motto is the strict oath pronounced by the templars, or a sort of condensation of a larger cerimonial speech ... and when has its engraving started, namely in clear castilian ( configuring a trade behaviour ? ). other members will probably know more about this.
naturally this and other spanish sugestive phrases were also common in portuguese swords of the 1600-1700 period, as i already saw some cup hilts with them on. some spanish colonial espada anchas also had this motto.
coming back to masonry, how's about the symbols like the ones in Jeff D's
basket hilt, the sun and the half moon, being masonic ? at least they deal with similar stuff, as can be seen.
if all this was the wrong answer, please tell what i missed.
lots of health for you, Jim

6th June 2005, 12:29 AM	#1
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Hi Jim, Thank you for sharing your excellent research. Since we originally discussed this I have constantly been looking for these stars and moons. They are very prominent on later 18th century English military weapons with German blades. 1788's (top) and 1796's (second from top). I have pasted a few of the examples I have found. I suspect Castle's observations are regarding civilian weapons. If I find any pre 1750's with the etched symbols this will be the first place I will paste them. Thanks again Jim! Jeff Attached Images

7th June 2005, 04:51 AM	#6
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Hi Fernando, Thanks for the information. Like Jim I would love to check the reference. As an aside, here is a inscription I know you will like. It is "Viva de Portugal", sorry about the picture as the sword is in storage and I had to use an old photo. Thanks again. Jeff Attached Images

6th June 2005, 04:29 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Hi Jeff, Outstanding examples!!! Thanks very much for posting them! We'll keep looking OK? There must be examples out there of blades that may be early 18th century with such markings (still curious on Wagners illustrations of Munich examples with his very early period of activity). Also have yet to see actual examples of the Spanish blades mentioned. All the best, Jim

6th June 2005, 08:57 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	sorry to interfere. this motto would reflect a symbolic oath usually made the Knights Templars. its engraving in swords blades, which became a fashion for so long, might or should have been at a later stage, but probably earlier than late XVII century ... i have a serious little book, including a spanish sword of the late XVI century, already with this wording.

6th June 2005, 09:55 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Hi Fernando, Thats outstanding!!! Could you please tell us more on that, as western sources have extremely little on this motto, and if you would please cite source for association to Knights Templar. The wording sounds very chivalrous and your note seems entirely plausible, but we need source for reference. Thank you very much for adding this information All the best, Jim P.S. Its great to hear from you!! Long time since we talked!!

7th June 2005, 07:57 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	hi Jim allways a pleasure. for a start, you have the following: http://www3.tky.3web.ne.jp/~jafarr/s...symbolism.html this site is related to masonry lecturing. but if you browse the net using the motto as the key, you will find several other pages, further masonry ones included, all giving account of the motto origin, in precisely the same manner. there seems to be no doubt about this. we know that blade word engraving started very early, with all kinds of sayings and mottos. what is to be known is, if this motto is the strict oath pronounced by the templars, or a sort of condensation of a larger cerimonial speech ... and when has its engraving started, namely in clear castilian ( configuring a trade behaviour ? ). other members will probably know more about this. naturally this and other spanish sugestive phrases were also common in portuguese swords of the 1600-1700 period, as i already saw some cup hilts with them on. some spanish colonial espada anchas also had this motto. coming back to masonry, how's about the symbols like the ones in Jeff D's basket hilt, the sun and the half moon, being masonic ? at least they deal with similar stuff, as can be seen. if all this was the wrong answer, please tell what i missed. lots of health for you, Jim