Baskethilt

Jim McDougall · 5th June 2005, 10:56 PM

Hi Jeff,
I have been hoping that someone out there might find a reference or example of pre-1750 provenance blade with these facially enhanced crescent moon and sun. Meanwhile I have been looking more into the use of these images on blades, which are clearly associated with the allegorically and talismanically symbolized figures that became popular through cabbalistic and occult literature. Without going into the complexities of such esoterica, it seems very apparant that the style of these inscribed images are very similar to the 18th century artwork seen on tarot cards and similar occult material.

As discussed, the blade on your sword seems clearly of mid to third quarter eighteenth century as well as clearly a Solingen product, the hilt being Scottish and also of that period. In reviewing material on blades with such 'cabbalistic' or occult images it does seem that they typically do occur primarily on c.1750 blades, especially on 'hunting' swords. In previous discussions discussing these markings on blades we have noted references to many such swords intended for use by the gentry as for hunt as well as 'riding' swords for protection while travelling. In "Schools and Masters of Fence" (Egerton Castle, 1885, p.42), it is noted that magical signs often appeared on hunting swords produced in Germany and the etching of hunting scenes often accompanied such motif. Curiously, the author notes that "...in the second half of the eighteenth century, decoration on the blades was confined to a band of interlaced strapwork with some sprays of foliage or martial trophies".

This seems to suggest that use of such magical motif actually declined, rather than acceded after 1750, at least on hunting weapons. This would imply that popularity of such 'magical' motif had waned by then at least in hunting swords intended for German use.....however it seems established that cessation of such trends would not necessarily impact the trade blade sector (consider the Solingen blades thus marked found on 19th century kaskaras).

While this information does not really address the search for pre-1750 use of these symbols, it does seem interesting regarding the established use of them. We know that the crescent moon image was widely used in antiquity and is also noted used as a stylized stamp or marking by Spanish smiths for one example (Juan Martinez of Toledo, mid 16th c. , Wagner, p.106). As we have noted, Spain was a main source for Solingen prototypes and much of the occult esoterica that entered Europe as well. We still need to see actual examples of the faced crescent moon on earlier blades as we have discussed, but the artistic style of the example on your blade seems clearly mid-18th c. as we have agreed.

I hope others might come in on this and give us more on such examples and especially on Peter Munich. As always, I wonder more on this identity, and exactly where and what period he actually worked. The Oakeshott attribution on the 18th century English baskethilt seems puzzling as well, with a blade seemingly comparable in date to yours and I agree with your suggestion of the Wagner reference as plausibly the root of the Munich attribution.

All the best ,
Jim

Jeff D · 6th June 2005, 12:29 AM

Hi Jim,

Thank you for sharing your excellent research. Since we originally discussed this I have constantly been looking for these stars and moons. They are very prominent on later 18th century English military weapons with German blades. 1788's (top) and 1796's (second from top). I have pasted a few of the examples I have found. I suspect Castle's observations are regarding civilian weapons.
If I find any pre 1750's with the etched symbols this will be the first place I will paste them.

Thanks again Jim!
Jeff

Jim McDougall · 6th June 2005, 04:29 AM

Hi Jeff,
Outstanding examples!!! Thanks very much for posting them!
We'll keep looking OK? There must be examples out there of blades that may be early 18th century with such markings (still curious on Wagners illustrations of Munich examples with his very early period of activity).
Also have yet to see actual examples of the Spanish blades mentioned.
All the best,
Jim

Jeff D · 6th June 2005, 04:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Also have yet to see actual examples of the Spanish blades mentioned.
Jim

Hi Jim,

You might find this thread interesting; http://forums.swordforum.com/showthr...threadid=50438

All the Best
Jeff

fernando · 6th June 2005, 08:57 PM

sorry to interfere.
this motto would reflect a symbolic oath usually made the Knights Templars.
its engraving in swords blades, which became a fashion for so long, might or should have been at a later stage, but probably earlier than late XVII century ...
i have a serious little book, including a spanish sword of the late XVI century,
already with this wording.

Jim McDougall · 6th June 2005, 09:55 PM

Hi Fernando,
Thats outstanding!!! Could you please tell us more on that, as western sources have extremely little on this motto, and if you would please cite source for association to Knights Templar. The wording sounds very chivalrous and your note seems entirely plausible, but we need source for reference. Thank you very much for adding this information

All the best,
Jim

P.S. Its great to hear from you!! Long time since we talked!!

Jeff D · 7th June 2005, 04:51 AM

Hi Fernando,

Thanks for the information. Like Jim I would love to check the reference. As an aside, here is a inscription I know you will like. It is "Viva de Portugal", sorry about the picture as the sword is in storage and I had to use an old photo.

Thanks again.
Jeff

5th June 2005, 10:56 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Hi Jeff, I have been hoping that someone out there might find a reference or example of pre-1750 provenance blade with these facially enhanced crescent moon and sun. Meanwhile I have been looking more into the use of these images on blades, which are clearly associated with the allegorically and talismanically symbolized figures that became popular through cabbalistic and occult literature. Without going into the complexities of such esoterica, it seems very apparant that the style of these inscribed images are very similar to the 18th century artwork seen on tarot cards and similar occult material. As discussed, the blade on your sword seems clearly of mid to third quarter eighteenth century as well as clearly a Solingen product, the hilt being Scottish and also of that period. In reviewing material on blades with such 'cabbalistic' or occult images it does seem that they typically do occur primarily on c.1750 blades, especially on 'hunting' swords. In previous discussions discussing these markings on blades we have noted references to many such swords intended for use by the gentry as for hunt as well as 'riding' swords for protection while travelling. In "Schools and Masters of Fence" (Egerton Castle, 1885, p.42), it is noted that magical signs often appeared on hunting swords produced in Germany and the etching of hunting scenes often accompanied such motif. Curiously, the author notes that "...in the second half of the eighteenth century, decoration on the blades was confined to a band of interlaced strapwork with some sprays of foliage or martial trophies". This seems to suggest that use of such magical motif actually declined, rather than acceded after 1750, at least on hunting weapons. This would imply that popularity of such 'magical' motif had waned by then at least in hunting swords intended for German use.....however it seems established that cessation of such trends would not necessarily impact the trade blade sector (consider the Solingen blades thus marked found on 19th century kaskaras). While this information does not really address the search for pre-1750 use of these symbols, it does seem interesting regarding the established use of them. We know that the crescent moon image was widely used in antiquity and is also noted used as a stylized stamp or marking by Spanish smiths for one example (Juan Martinez of Toledo, mid 16th c. , Wagner, p.106). As we have noted, Spain was a main source for Solingen prototypes and much of the occult esoterica that entered Europe as well. We still need to see actual examples of the faced crescent moon on earlier blades as we have discussed, but the artistic style of the example on your blade seems clearly mid-18th c. as we have agreed. I hope others might come in on this and give us more on such examples and especially on Peter Munich. As always, I wonder more on this identity, and exactly where and what period he actually worked. The Oakeshott attribution on the 18th century English baskethilt seems puzzling as well, with a blade seemingly comparable in date to yours and I agree with your suggestion of the Wagner reference as plausibly the root of the Munich attribution. All the best , Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 5th June 2005 at 11:12 PM.

6th June 2005, 12:29 AM	#2
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Hi Jim, Thank you for sharing your excellent research. Since we originally discussed this I have constantly been looking for these stars and moons. They are very prominent on later 18th century English military weapons with German blades. 1788's (top) and 1796's (second from top). I have pasted a few of the examples I have found. I suspect Castle's observations are regarding civilian weapons. If I find any pre 1750's with the etched symbols this will be the first place I will paste them. Thanks again Jim! Jeff Attached Images

7th June 2005, 04:51 AM	#7
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Hi Fernando, Thanks for the information. Like Jim I would love to check the reference. As an aside, here is a inscription I know you will like. It is "Viva de Portugal", sorry about the picture as the sword is in storage and I had to use an old photo. Thanks again. Jeff Attached Images

6th June 2005, 04:29 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Hi Jeff, Outstanding examples!!! Thanks very much for posting them! We'll keep looking OK? There must be examples out there of blades that may be early 18th century with such markings (still curious on Wagners illustrations of Munich examples with his very early period of activity). Also have yet to see actual examples of the Spanish blades mentioned. All the best, Jim

6th June 2005, 08:57 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	sorry to interfere. this motto would reflect a symbolic oath usually made the Knights Templars. its engraving in swords blades, which became a fashion for so long, might or should have been at a later stage, but probably earlier than late XVII century ... i have a serious little book, including a spanish sword of the late XVI century, already with this wording.

6th June 2005, 09:55 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Hi Fernando, Thats outstanding!!! Could you please tell us more on that, as western sources have extremely little on this motto, and if you would please cite source for association to Knights Templar. The wording sounds very chivalrous and your note seems entirely plausible, but we need source for reference. Thank you very much for adding this information All the best, Jim P.S. Its great to hear from you!! Long time since we talked!!