good day

Rick · 8th June 2010, 06:31 PM

My one observation is that the workmanship seems a bit crude for European manufacture .

Look at the engraved rings on the ferrule; a European smith (in the era we're speaking of) would probably have not let that ferrule out the shop door .

The Apprentice who did the work might have been dismissed also .

So I'd guess there is not much of European manufacture here; maybe the button, tack and lower crossguard .

Africa gets my vote for now ..

Best,
Rick

Tim Simmons · 8th June 2010, 07:21 PM

I have to ask what is so technically beyond African metal work. Benin would have continuous European contact but above all highly skilled court artists. Look at the work in these links-
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12015
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=trumbash

These would be like the back woods compared to Benin.

I could bring up many examples from the archive of the most excellent African work.

Jim McDougall · 8th June 2010, 07:58 PM

While the focus on whether the work is European or African continues, and as my observations concerning that perspective are irrelevant, I have posted again here the markings which I think are interesting. I was having some technical difficulty in attaching in previous post, so wanted to be sure it was seen by those interested in markings.

Jim McDougall · 9th June 2010, 07:13 PM

518 hits so far, nice!!!!

Rick · 9th June 2010, 09:31 PM

Got tired of going up and down the page ..

Figure A .

yuanzhumin · 10th June 2010, 11:54 PM

Because I mentioned the Paiwan snake pattern in this thread before, I thought that it could be useful to have an idea of what I meant. Here is a graphic that could be of interest, showing how the patterns can be highly stylicised among the Paiwan, as it could be among other tribal groups. Diamond patterns, triangle patterns… all of them symbolizing the snake.

Jim McDougall · 11th June 2010, 06:44 PM

Nicely done Yuanzhumin!! thank you for posting this which illustrates the similarities in symbolism that can occur convergently. There is an outstanding book from some years ago titled "The Mind in the Cave", which deals with prehistoric man and discusses the meanings of many of the symbols in caves and rock art. Much of the emphasis was on the temporal interpretation of these figures and symbols, often suggesting that they were not necessarily intended to represent events that had happened, as they were meant to entreat positive forces in events yet to take place.

Obviously it is unlikely we can interpret meanings such as these with any accuracy, but it is interesting to note the similarities graphically, and these that you have posted really present excellent comparison.

Again, thank you for acknowledging and responding to my comments and posts, it is very much appreciated

I think we're on the same page.

All the best,
Jim

8th June 2010, 06:31 PM	#1
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	My one observation is that the workmanship seems a bit crude for European manufacture . Look at the engraved rings on the ferrule; a European smith (in the era we're speaking of) would probably have not let that ferrule out the shop door . The Apprentice who did the work might have been dismissed also . So I'd guess there is not much of European manufacture here; maybe the button, tack and lower crossguard . Africa gets my vote for now .. Best, Rick Last edited by Rick; 8th June 2010 at 06:44 PM.

8th June 2010, 07:58 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	While the focus on whether the work is European or African continues, and as my observations concerning that perspective are irrelevant, I have posted again here the markings which I think are interesting. I was having some technical difficulty in attaching in previous post, so wanted to be sure it was seen by those interested in markings. Attached Images

9th June 2010, 09:31 PM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Got tired of going up and down the page .. Figure A . Attached Images

10th June 2010, 11:54 PM	#6
yuanzhumin Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Ex-Taipei, Taiwan, now in Shanghai, China Posts: 180	Because I mentioned the Paiwan snake pattern in this thread before, I thought that it could be useful to have an idea of what I meant. Here is a graphic that could be of interest, showing how the patterns can be highly stylicised among the Paiwan, as it could be among other tribal groups. Diamond patterns, triangle patterns… all of them symbolizing the snake. Attached Images

8th June 2010, 07:21 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	I have to ask what is so technically beyond African metal work. Benin would have continuous European contact but above all highly skilled court artists. Look at the work in these links- http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12015 http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=trumbash These would be like the back woods compared to Benin. I could bring up many examples from the archive of the most excellent African work.

9th June 2010, 07:13 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	518 hits so far, nice!!!!

11th June 2010, 06:44 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	Nicely done Yuanzhumin!! thank you for posting this which illustrates the similarities in symbolism that can occur convergently. There is an outstanding book from some years ago titled "The Mind in the Cave", which deals with prehistoric man and discusses the meanings of many of the symbols in caves and rock art. Much of the emphasis was on the temporal interpretation of these figures and symbols, often suggesting that they were not necessarily intended to represent events that had happened, as they were meant to entreat positive forces in events yet to take place. Obviously it is unlikely we can interpret meanings such as these with any accuracy, but it is interesting to note the similarities graphically, and these that you have posted really present excellent comparison. Again, thank you for acknowledging and responding to my comments and posts, it is very much appreciated I think we're on the same page. All the best, Jim