good day

Lew · 5th June 2010, 10:20 PM

Tim good shot but notice the cross guard on your example is thin sheet metal where the one in question has been hot rolled or formed to shape. Here is a 18th century French hunting sword. My guess now is that the piece in question is a trousse knife from a set used for hunting. I am pretty sure there was a strong French influence in that part of Africa the piece you posted definately has a strong European style to it.

Jim McDougall · 5th June 2010, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

Tim good shot but notice the cross guard on your example is thin sheet metal where the one in question has been hot rolled or formed to shape. Here is a 18th century French hunting sword. My guess now is that the piece in question is a trousse knife from a set used for hunting. I am pretty sure there was a strong French influence in that part of Africa the piece you posted definately has a strong European style to it.

Just saw this....well reasoned suggestion....the rounded blade on this does resemble something seen in European hunting trousse, and with the prevalent European presence colonially in these West African regions certainly would present potential for such case.

yuanzhumin · 6th June 2010, 03:30 AM

This is not my usual field of expertise but one thing stroke me: the ressemblance of the pattern on the blade of this hunting knife with the traditional pattern of the ancestor snake on the Paiwan swords from Taiwan. As Jim mentioned, this could well be an African python.
If you go to my recent post about a Paiwan knife on Ebay, I'm sure that when looking at the snake on the scabbard, you will see what I mean. I don't think this kind of pattern would be found on a French hunting knife but for sure it could be on an African hunting knife with a strong colonial french influence. Or, even, it could be also an authentic French hunting knife that would have travelled to Africa with its original owner before being passed to a local owner that could have added some design of its own. Just my guess.

Lew · 6th June 2010, 05:45 AM

The lotus symbol seems to be a form of The Fleur-de-Lis the snake often represents civil war or rebellion against the king in French culture. I am still leaning towards a French hunting trousse. The iron work seems far too good on the guard to be West African. Here is an example of an 18th century French trousse notice the lotus design on the blade at the left and the birds head pommel on the one on the right.

Tim Simmons · 6th June 2010, 11:27 AM

Yes I can see a slight resemblance to the round end hunting/table knives. However I just cannot see this in anyway made to the taste of the more affluent {European cultural origin} people that would use elaborate hunting knives. The engraving to me is just not right. Something about it reminds me of the engraving seen on Nigerian arm knives with the brass scabbards and brass arm band.
I have to admit the second heavier quillon is very European looking. But I cannot see it as any more sophisticated than much familiar African work. I have a few more pictures. Although the pommels end here with is a lion? head. The form and construction of the handles have a lot in common especially the ferrule before the quillions. They are even decorated in the same manner. As a Benin knife it would be top quality and to me it looks very awkward as European work. What ever it is I like it and good fun thrashing it out.

The pictures are from- black background "De fer et de fierte" Jan Elsen, musse Barbier-Mueller. The other "Seltene Afrikanische Kurzwaffen" Manfred A Zirngibl.

Lew · 6th June 2010, 03:13 PM

Tim

The piece on the left is of European manufacture and has been embellished tribally. So it is possible that the knife we are discussing was engraved in Africa but it's original manufature was done in Europe.

RSWORD · 6th June 2010, 03:19 PM

Lew,

Keep in mind that the crossguard could be European made but added to this African piece as recycled parts. Notice that the guard and ferrule are nice iron/steel while the pommel nut seems a bit more crude and brass. I suspect these steel components are salvaged or recycled parts from a European piece of sorts and utilized to enhance this African ceremonial piece.

G. McCormack · 6th June 2010, 05:23 PM

tricky! This does not feel African in my opinion. The quillons (esp. the treatment of the smaller, thinner one), the button on the hilt, and the treatment of the tang button all point towards a european manufacture in my mind- odd hunting trousse piece is my guess.

Jim McDougall · 7th June 2010, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RSWORD

Lew,

Keep in mind that the crossguard could be European made but added to this African piece as recycled parts. Notice that the guard and ferrule are nice iron/steel while the pommel nut seems a bit more crude and brass. I suspect these steel components are salvaged or recycled parts from a European piece of sorts and utilized to enhance this African ceremonial piece.

Extremely pertinant suggestion here by Rick, I have seen many examples of unusual weapons etc. refurbished in African context using components much in this manner, often with surprising results. I think that these 'amalgams' often strain our 'forensics' to the limit

but the discussions are truly a learning experience for all.

5th June 2010, 10:20 PM	#1
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Tim good shot but notice the cross guard on your example is thin sheet metal where the one in question has been hot rolled or formed to shape. Here is a 18th century French hunting sword. My guess now is that the piece in question is a trousse knife from a set used for hunting. I am pretty sure there was a strong French influence in that part of Africa the piece you posted definately has a strong European style to it. Attached Images

6th June 2010, 05:45 AM	#4
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	The lotus symbol seems to be a form of The Fleur-de-Lis the snake often represents civil war or rebellion against the king in French culture. I am still leaning towards a French hunting trousse. The iron work seems far too good on the guard to be West African. Here is an example of an 18th century French trousse notice the lotus design on the blade at the left and the birds head pommel on the one on the right. Attached Images Last edited by LOUIEBLADES; 6th June 2010 at 06:31 AM.

6th June 2010, 11:27 AM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,855	Yes I can see a slight resemblance to the round end hunting/table knives. However I just cannot see this in anyway made to the taste of the more affluent {European cultural origin} people that would use elaborate hunting knives. The engraving to me is just not right. Something about it reminds me of the engraving seen on Nigerian arm knives with the brass scabbards and brass arm band. I have to admit the second heavier quillon is very European looking. But I cannot see it as any more sophisticated than much familiar African work. I have a few more pictures. Although the pommels end here with is a lion? head. The form and construction of the handles have a lot in common especially the ferrule before the quillions. They are even decorated in the same manner. As a Benin knife it would be top quality and to me it looks very awkward as European work. What ever it is I like it and good fun thrashing it out. The pictures are from- black background "De fer et de fierte" Jan Elsen, musse Barbier-Mueller. The other "Seltene Afrikanische Kurzwaffen" Manfred A Zirngibl. Attached Images

6th June 2010, 03:30 AM	#3
yuanzhumin Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Ex-Taipei, Taiwan, now in Shanghai, China Posts: 180	This is not my usual field of expertise but one thing stroke me: the ressemblance of the pattern on the blade of this hunting knife with the traditional pattern of the ancestor snake on the Paiwan swords from Taiwan. As Jim mentioned, this could well be an African python. If you go to my recent post about a Paiwan knife on Ebay, I'm sure that when looking at the snake on the scabbard, you will see what I mean. I don't think this kind of pattern would be found on a French hunting knife but for sure it could be on an African hunting knife with a strong colonial french influence. Or, even, it could be also an authentic French hunting knife that would have travelled to Africa with its original owner before being passed to a local owner that could have added some design of its own. Just my guess.

6th June 2010, 03:13 PM	#6
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Tim The piece on the left is of European manufacture and has been embellished tribally. So it is possible that the knife we are discussing was engraved in Africa but it's original manufature was done in Europe.

6th June 2010, 03:19 PM	#7
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,087	Lew, Keep in mind that the crossguard could be European made but added to this African piece as recycled parts. Notice that the guard and ferrule are nice iron/steel while the pommel nut seems a bit more crude and brass. I suspect these steel components are salvaged or recycled parts from a European piece of sorts and utilized to enhance this African ceremonial piece.

6th June 2010, 05:23 PM	#8
G. McCormack Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Tallahassee, FL Posts: 131	tricky! This does not feel African in my opinion. The quillons (esp. the treatment of the smaller, thinner one), the button on the hilt, and the treatment of the tang button all point towards a european manufacture in my mind- odd hunting trousse piece is my guess.