17th Century Puzzle

bluelake · 25th May 2010, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philip

Thomas,
John L. Boots, in his monograph KOREAN WEAPONS AND ARMOUR (Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society, Korea Branch, 1934), mentions that of all the martial arts, archery was the most esteemed in pre-modern Korea. I find it interesting to note that this particular affection for the bow and arrow is also a defining characteristic of the martial cultures of the Manchus, Mongols, and Turks -- peoples, who along with the Koreans are members of the Ural-Altaic linguistic family. Put a Korean composite-recurved bow next to an Ottoman one and you'll see weapons of almost identical proportions (distinct from Manchu, Sino-Tibetan, and Indian bows) and performance characteristics. The Korean and Turkish weapons are known for their ability to shoot very light arrows at velocities and over distances unmatched by the bows of other nations. Our colleague Peter Dekker is a wealth of info on this subject and I suggest that you contact him if you have further interest.

Thanks, Philip, but I literally wrote the book on Korean traditional archery

My website: http://www.koreanarchery.org (my book is on the front page).

T

Dmitry · 15th June 2010, 02:58 AM

Here are some promised illustrations of the Russian style lock.

bluelake · 16th June 2010, 03:33 AM

Thanks, Dmitry. Do you think this might have been the type of lock used in the early 17 C. that the Koreans captured from the Russians?

Philip · 18th June 2010, 07:54 AM

Thank you, Dmitry, for posting these pics, especially those showing detached locks, exterior and interior views. Mechanically, these are among the earliest manifestations of flint-and-steel mechanisms on guns that are known, and it is believed that they first appeared in Scandinavia in the mid-16th cent. Blackmore (p. 28, cat. no. 134) discusses what is perhaps one of the oldest dated examples, now in Stockholm's Royal Armory and thought to be one of several guns with Nuremberg barrel marks, converted to this early flint mechanism by Swedish technicians at Arboga in 1556. This style of lock quickly spread throughout the Baltic area and not long after to Russia where they were well-known by the beginning of the 17th cent.

Strictly speaking, these locks and the examples in your pics are not true flintlocks, for reasons discussed previously. They are SNAPHAUNCES, the distinction being in the separation of the steel (which is struck by the flint) and the priming-pan cover into separate units. A true flintlock has, besides an internal mainspring and sear system, a COMBINED steel and pan-cover (the unit looks like a letter L).

Be that as it may, the examples shown here, like their Scanian counterparts, have a primitive character to them which is not only charming but speaks to their antiquity. The pan-covers are opened manually, like those on matchlocks, before firing. Some of the covers slide, others pivot like those on matchlocks. Note how the first example shown in your post has a lockplate which bulges out on the bottom. This is a hold-over from the style of lockplate on the earlier wheel-lock, it is a vestigial stylistic element which is functionally irrelevant on a snaphaunce because no wheel is necessary!

Snaphaunces were made also in Holland, Italy, and later Morocco but these are more advanced since the mechanism is provided with a push-rod and bell-crank linkage between the tumbler and pan-cover so that the cover AUTOMATICALLY opens when the gun fires. (See Blackmore, appendix, pp 112-13 for operational diagrams).

The primitive flint mecanisms had a long life in the Baltic regions and Russia as well. They remained in use in rural parts of Sweden, Finland, and Norway until the beginning of the 19th cent., and I recall reading a memoir by a Western traveler seeing them for sale in a market in western Siberia ca. 1900.

bluelake · 19th June 2010, 03:14 AM

Very good information, Philip--thanks!

Dmitry or Philip--Regarding my last question:

Quote:

Do you think this might have been the type of lock used in the early 17 C. that the Koreans captured from the Russians?

Also, Dmitry, where did you find the pictures?

Thanks, guys.

fernando · 19th June 2010, 06:11 PM

Great lectures Philip

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philip

... Snaphaunces were made also in Holland, Italy, and later Morocco but these are more advanced since the mechanism is provided with a push-rod and bell-crank linkage between the tumbler and pan-cover so that the cover AUTOMATICALLY opens when the gun fires... .

If i may hijack the thread, bluelake, attached is one rustic example of the Snaphaunce version quoted by Philip, in that the pan cover opens while you fire the gun.
I beleive this is a Moroccan specimen, possibly from the 19th century, although i ignore where the gunsmith inspired his imagination to make such a bizarre butt stock, resembling somehow those from early weel lock pistols.
Fernando

.

Philip · 20th June 2010, 07:51 AM

Thomas:
To answer your question (or attempt to do so), yes I do believe that the type of snaphaunces in Dmitry's photos are very likely the sort of thing the Korean troops were exposed to in their encounters with the Russians in the early 17th cent. I'm just hoping that you'll uncover in a S. Korean archive an old military text or manual that has a woodblock illustration of the Korean version of one of these, just as we have similar documentation of Chinese copies of Portuguese proto-flintlocks.

Fernando:
Moroccan pistols are not very common. Yours is quite interesting because of its ball butt. ON the one hand, you could say it is an extreme anachronism if you associate the ball with the familiar north European wheellock pistols with the same feature. The connection is possible, after all the snaphaunce lock was introduced to the Maghrib by the Dutch during an era in which such wheellocks were still in use in places. (note also that there is still a resemblance of certain styles of Moroccan musket buttstocks to those on some types of Dutch and English matchlock guns). On the other hand, you could place the origin of your Moroccan ball butt a bit closer in space and time -- I'm thinking of the Catalan-style pistols, made in Ripoll from the 17th cent. until ca. 1800.

I checked my copy of Geo. C. Stone's GLOSSARY...ARMS AND ARMOR, fig. 649/4 is a crudely-repaired Spanish pistol (with a patilha lock) from Morocco, and 649/1 is the only example in the book with a snaphaunce lock like yours, although the butt is mushroom-shaped and not a full ball. The other two examples are local copies of Ottoman flintlock holster pistols which are themselves knockoffs (of generally inferior quality) of late 17th cent. Dutch and German originals. Indeed, Stone notes (p 503) "In Morocco and North Africa most of the pistols were European or like the Turkish, except for the decoration."

The fact that your lock has a manually-opened pan cover is very rustic indeed, the gunsmith probably lacked the skills to make the automatic-opening mechanism that is usually found on Moroccan locks. This adds to its ethnographic interest, suggesting that it came from a remote source indeed, to embody a shape of stock that had fallen out of disuse so long before in Europe.

bluelake · 20th June 2010, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philip

Thomas:
To answer your question (or attempt to do so), yes I do believe that the type of snaphaunces in Dmitry's photos are very likely the sort of thing the Korean troops were exposed to in their encounters with the Russians in the early 17th cent. I'm just hoping that you'll uncover in a S. Korean archive an old military text or manual that has a woodblock illustration of the Korean version of one of these, just as we have similar documentation of Chinese copies of Portuguese proto-flintlocks.

Thanks again, Philip. I've been trying to find some local evidence of what type of rock lock the Koreans came into contact with. The biggest problem is that so many records (and other things) were lost or destroyed since that time due to invasions, uprisings, occupation, and a major civil war. Still, I sort through stacks of old books every time I come across them just on the off-chance I might find something important.

Slightly OT, but the loss of things reminded me of a story I was told just last year. The general who was the commander of Korean forces in 1871 when the US attacked, and who was killed in the fighting, had his boyhood home south of the city of Seoul. My wife and I visited there as we were in the area. One village person told us a story that made my heart sink. The general's armor, sword, etc. were kept in the home (the home is still there); back in the 1970s, someone gathered it all up and sold it to a junk dealer who was passing by with his cart.

15th June 2010, 02:58 AM	#2
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	Here are some promised illustrations of the Russian style lock. Attached Images

18th June 2010, 07:54 AM	#4
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	Early Russian flint mechanisms Thank you, Dmitry, for posting these pics, especially those showing detached locks, exterior and interior views. Mechanically, these are among the earliest manifestations of flint-and-steel mechanisms on guns that are known, and it is believed that they first appeared in Scandinavia in the mid-16th cent. Blackmore (p. 28, cat. no. 134) discusses what is perhaps one of the oldest dated examples, now in Stockholm's Royal Armory and thought to be one of several guns with Nuremberg barrel marks, converted to this early flint mechanism by Swedish technicians at Arboga in 1556. This style of lock quickly spread throughout the Baltic area and not long after to Russia where they were well-known by the beginning of the 17th cent. Strictly speaking, these locks and the examples in your pics are not true flintlocks, for reasons discussed previously. They are SNAPHAUNCES, the distinction being in the separation of the steel (which is struck by the flint) and the priming-pan cover into separate units. A true flintlock has, besides an internal mainspring and sear system, a COMBINED steel and pan-cover (the unit looks like a letter L). Be that as it may, the examples shown here, like their Scanian counterparts, have a primitive character to them which is not only charming but speaks to their antiquity. The pan-covers are opened manually, like those on matchlocks, before firing. Some of the covers slide, others pivot like those on matchlocks. Note how the first example shown in your post has a lockplate which bulges out on the bottom. This is a hold-over from the style of lockplate on the earlier wheel-lock, it is a vestigial stylistic element which is functionally irrelevant on a snaphaunce because no wheel is necessary! Snaphaunces were made also in Holland, Italy, and later Morocco but these are more advanced since the mechanism is provided with a push-rod and bell-crank linkage between the tumbler and pan-cover so that the cover AUTOMATICALLY opens when the gun fires. (See Blackmore, appendix, pp 112-13 for operational diagrams). The primitive flint mecanisms had a long life in the Baltic regions and Russia as well. They remained in use in rural parts of Sweden, Finland, and Norway until the beginning of the 19th cent., and I recall reading a memoir by a Western traveler seeing them for sale in a market in western Siberia ca. 1900.

20th June 2010, 07:51 AM	#7
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	Back to Korea... / Moroccan pistol Thomas: To answer your question (or attempt to do so), yes I do believe that the type of snaphaunces in Dmitry's photos are very likely the sort of thing the Korean troops were exposed to in their encounters with the Russians in the early 17th cent. I'm just hoping that you'll uncover in a S. Korean archive an old military text or manual that has a woodblock illustration of the Korean version of one of these, just as we have similar documentation of Chinese copies of Portuguese proto-flintlocks. Fernando: Moroccan pistols are not very common. Yours is quite interesting because of its ball butt. ON the one hand, you could say it is an extreme anachronism if you associate the ball with the familiar north European wheellock pistols with the same feature. The connection is possible, after all the snaphaunce lock was introduced to the Maghrib by the Dutch during an era in which such wheellocks were still in use in places. (note also that there is still a resemblance of certain styles of Moroccan musket buttstocks to those on some types of Dutch and English matchlock guns). On the other hand, you could place the origin of your Moroccan ball butt a bit closer in space and time -- I'm thinking of the Catalan-style pistols, made in Ripoll from the 17th cent. until ca. 1800. I checked my copy of Geo. C. Stone's GLOSSARY...ARMS AND ARMOR, fig. 649/4 is a crudely-repaired Spanish pistol (with a patilha lock) from Morocco, and 649/1 is the only example in the book with a snaphaunce lock like yours, although the butt is mushroom-shaped and not a full ball. The other two examples are local copies of Ottoman flintlock holster pistols which are themselves knockoffs (of generally inferior quality) of late 17th cent. Dutch and German originals. Indeed, Stone notes (p 503) "In Morocco and North Africa most of the pistols were European or like the Turkish, except for the decoration." The fact that your lock has a manually-opened pan cover is very rustic indeed, the gunsmith probably lacked the skills to make the automatic-opening mechanism that is usually found on Moroccan locks. This adds to its ethnographic interest, suggesting that it came from a remote source indeed, to embody a shape of stock that had fallen out of disuse so long before in Europe.

16th June 2010, 03:33 AM	#3
bluelake Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Gyeongsan, South Korea Posts: 57	Thanks, Dmitry. Do you think this might have been the type of lock used in the early 17 C. that the Koreans captured from the Russians?