Kaskara with unusual patterning in the blade

Rick · 24th May 2010, 08:24 PM

Maybe rub a section of the blade with a little oil and take another closeup ?
Really hard to tell pitting from pattern in the piccys .

RSWORD · 24th May 2010, 10:04 PM

I agree that it is very difficult to determine the metalurgical details given how much pitting and patina are on the blade. To make a better guess, you can always polish a window in the blade and etch it to find out. However, given the low probability that it is wootz it might be prohibitive to find out especially if it turns out not to be wootz and then you have a clean window in an otherwise pitted and patina'ed blade.

Lew · 24th May 2010, 11:02 PM

I would say it is highly unlikely that this blade is wootz. It seems to be an older European trade blade.

Jim McDougall · 25th May 2010, 04:16 AM

Actually this type kaskara blade with this type fuller and the uniformity of the blade thickness suggest it is likely sheet steel which indeed does show some age. In some cases stock markings can be found among the locally applied imitations of the old European markings which are still often used.

I am not sure on the metallurgy of sheet steel, or the degrees of quality but it would be interesting to know more on this steel which was used for the blades produced there in the latter 19th century into the early 20th as the volume of remaining European blades diminished.

katana · 25th May 2010, 02:04 PM

Thank you all, for your comments, I will try and clean a window and post pictures. As I said before, I am certain this is not a form of wootz ...but helps described the grainy, contrasted effect.
Hi Jim, the blade is not uniformly the same thickness. At the forte it is 4.5mm ...distally tapering to approx 1mm at the tip. It is well made with a good temper...I believe a European trade blade. If this is shear steel ...likely British ? (Sheffield ?) ....or where other European suppliers manufacturing shear steel blades ?

KInd Regards David

Jim McDougall · 25th May 2010, 05:46 PM

Hi David,
Thank you for clarifying the dimensions......I guess 'uniformity' would be a bad description for a sword blade as it makes it sound as if it were a steel bar with bevels for edges

It seems that with the advance of the Industrial Revolution, which of course covers considerable time, by the beginning of the 20th century there would have been considerable product availability in these types of steel.
In the British Sudan, naturally the products from Sheffield would have been prevalent, and I believe there have been discussions on markings found on Sudanese blades with remnants of sheet steel stock markings still visible. I believe some of these were established as Sheffield manufacturers.

Information I have says that the British were not producing blades for the Sudan, despite swords being produced for the Ottomans and Egyptian Army in the 19th century, but the later presence of sheet steel material would be aside from that.

It seems that European blades, which would have been from the earlier period, would have had either the central triple fuller or the long central fuller rather than the short channel seen on this, which seems to somewhat concur with the description in Lee's excellent article. I would add though, that the apparant age of the steel seen here may offer support for the European suggestion, though its form seems somewhat contrary from most trade blade examples. There are such ranges in variation in the endlessly recycled blades of these regions, anything is possible. It would seem that sheet steel would have reflected more of the modern treatment processes.

The native production of blades seems to have produced surprisingly well made examples. It seems curious that with the profound availability of European blades that had been around for many generations, as well as the keen production of numerous local armourers, that there would have been resort to these commercial steel product blades.

All the best,
Jim

Rick · 25th May 2010, 06:44 PM

Are we discussing Shear or Sheet steel, or both here ?

24th May 2010, 08:24 PM	#1
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,376	Maybe rub a section of the blade with a little oil and take another closeup ? Really hard to tell pitting from pattern in the piccys . Last edited by Rick; 24th May 2010 at 08:38 PM.

25th May 2010, 05:46 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,664	Hi David, Thank you for clarifying the dimensions......I guess 'uniformity' would be a bad description for a sword blade as it makes it sound as if it were a steel bar with bevels for edges It seems that with the advance of the Industrial Revolution, which of course covers considerable time, by the beginning of the 20th century there would have been considerable product availability in these types of steel. In the British Sudan, naturally the products from Sheffield would have been prevalent, and I believe there have been discussions on markings found on Sudanese blades with remnants of sheet steel stock markings still visible. I believe some of these were established as Sheffield manufacturers. Information I have says that the British were not producing blades for the Sudan, despite swords being produced for the Ottomans and Egyptian Army in the 19th century, but the later presence of sheet steel material would be aside from that. It seems that European blades, which would have been from the earlier period, would have had either the central triple fuller or the long central fuller rather than the short channel seen on this, which seems to somewhat concur with the description in Lee's excellent article. I would add though, that the apparant age of the steel seen here may offer support for the European suggestion, though its form seems somewhat contrary from most trade blade examples. There are such ranges in variation in the endlessly recycled blades of these regions, anything is possible. It would seem that sheet steel would have reflected more of the modern treatment processes. The native production of blades seems to have produced surprisingly well made examples. It seems curious that with the profound availability of European blades that had been around for many generations, as well as the keen production of numerous local armourers, that there would have been resort to these commercial steel product blades. All the best, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 25th May 2010 at 06:00 PM.

25th May 2010, 06:44 PM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,376	I'm Confused Are we discussing Shear or Sheet steel, or both here ?

24th May 2010, 10:04 PM	#2
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,093	I agree that it is very difficult to determine the metalurgical details given how much pitting and patina are on the blade. To make a better guess, you can always polish a window in the blade and etch it to find out. However, given the low probability that it is wootz it might be prohibitive to find out especially if it turns out not to be wootz and then you have a clean window in an otherwise pitted and patina'ed blade.

24th May 2010, 11:02 PM	#3
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	I would say it is highly unlikely that this blade is wootz. It seems to be an older European trade blade.

25th May 2010, 04:16 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,664	Actually this type kaskara blade with this type fuller and the uniformity of the blade thickness suggest it is likely sheet steel which indeed does show some age. In some cases stock markings can be found among the locally applied imitations of the old European markings which are still often used. I am not sure on the metallurgy of sheet steel, or the degrees of quality but it would be interesting to know more on this steel which was used for the blades produced there in the latter 19th century into the early 20th as the volume of remaining European blades diminished.

25th May 2010, 02:04 PM	#5
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Thank you all, for your comments, I will try and clean a window and post pictures. As I said before, I am certain this is not a form of wootz ...but helps described the grainy, contrasted effect. Hi Jim, the blade is not uniformly the same thickness. At the forte it is 4.5mm ...distally tapering to approx 1mm at the tip. It is well made with a good temper...I believe a European trade blade. If this is shear steel ...likely British ? (Sheffield ?) ....or where other European suppliers manufacturing shear steel blades ? KInd Regards David