Some more objects from the RDG - kaskara (?) and spears

David · 21st May 2010, 12:23 AM

RDG, in the future could you actually post your images directly to this forum. They are easy to access now, but next month or next year or so you are bound to take these off imageshack and then this will be a long and interesting discussion that has no illustrations of the weapon in question . If you need help we can tell you how to upload directly.

RDGAC · 21st May 2010, 01:07 AM

I did try uploading to the forum, but unfortunately found that the forum's file server size limits are rather smaller than the images I'm uploading! Is there any way around that? I know ImageShack and the like are distinctly ephemeral storage means, but without uploading them here being possible I'm not sure where else to go.

Edit: Of course, I could do the intelligent thing, and crop the images so as to eliminate the honking great background area that's irrelevant to the weapon. I'll try that tomorrow and see what I get, as well as working on getting some better pics of that design.

Jim McDougall · 21st May 2010, 04:31 AM

The link that Katana posted to the thread last year on this emigmatic marking brings up some interesting discussion. Now that I can see the marking, I recall that it did indeed come up in the key resource on takouba blades, Cabot-Briggs. I am inclined to follow the discourse there that suggests that this, as well as numerous versions of markings found on blades are indeed native interpretations of European markings on trade blades from generations before. The dramatic stylization results from not just degeneration through the reproduction process, but from the fact that these 'quality' marks became temporally adopted into local folk religion and talismanic significance.

It would seem that many of the markings and characteristic motif found on blades are essentially cross cultural, and diffused along the trade routes that crisscrossed the Saharan regions into the Sudan. For example, the paired crescent moons that are almost quintessant on takouba blades are also often seen on kaskara blades.

I believe we can be fairly certain that this marking is not a Mahdist symbol or associated in that respect, and while there is distinct astral motif favored on blades in the Sudan, this inscribed device is not representing a comet, but probably a developed symbol from earlier markings as noted.

RDGAC · 21st May 2010, 09:00 AM

While it's a little disappointing to find that our marking probably has nothing to do with the Mahdist uprising (which'd date the sword very nicely indeed, naturally), the mystery of what the design actually means is equally fascinating. One is inclined to wonder if there is any sort of trade directory for European swordsmiths of, say, the 16th and 17th centuries, which might enable one to discover (with a fair dose of conjecture) which blade-maker's mark was "appropriated" by the locals for use in their swords. Of course, it'd be just my luck if the maker turned out not to have a mark recorded.

Anyway, on we go; next item is what I think is an Omani kattara.

Meredydd Jones,
Assistant Curator RDG

Jim McDougall · 21st May 2010, 02:12 PM

[QUOTE=RDGAC]While it's a little disappointing to find that our marking probably has nothing to do with the Mahdist uprising (which'd date the sword very nicely indeed, naturally), the mystery of what the design actually means is equally fascinating. One is inclined to wonder if there is any sort of trade directory for European swordsmiths of, say, the 16th and 17th centuries, which might enable one to discover (with a fair dose of conjecture) which blade-maker's mark was "appropriated" by the locals for use in their swords. Of course, it'd be just my luck if the maker turned out not to have a mark recorded.

Anyway, on we go; next item is what I think is an Omani kattara.

Meredydd Jones,
Assistant Curator RDG[/QUOTE

Actually there are numerous resources which do reflect the markings and various names/phrases etc. on blades of these periods and into modern times. It has been fairly well suggested in earlier discussions that this particular marking may well derive from those of Solingen maker Peter Kull, whose blades entered the Sudanese sphere along with numerous other Solingen blades.

Actually it must be remembered that makers marks and the like were perceived as quality guarantees in Europe, and much in todays sense of marketing, they became widely copied. When these trade blades entered native markets, the emphasis placed on the markings in distributing them became perceived in many cases as imbuing them with power and other talismanic significance. Talismanic symbolism is key in the folk religion and superstition of these regions, and similar meaning can be found in the Arab 'aghrab', a device said to represent a scorpion and is meant to deter the evil eye. This device is so stylized that it is hard to discern that as what the figure represents, but the meaning remains firmly in place. The same type of application seems likely here, whether perceived to mean quality; the imbuing of power to the blade and its warrior or distinctly to deflect the forces of evil.....these are all potentially what may have been meanings, but as these would only have been known by who applied them, and again as perceived by others who used the blade..we can only guess.

The fact that this apparantly distinctly North African derivative of these earlier makers marks cannot be specifically assigned to the Mahdist movement does not eliminate swords with the mark from thier potential as having been among their weapons. It would appear that this type marking was being used as early as the 1880s or before, and the blades found with the marking as late as 1916-17, even though on takoubas, were certainly much older. The blades were a precious commodity, and swords were typically remounted many times through generations, particularly when changing hands.

As far as has been determined, there are really no known markings or stamps that would specify arsenal type application on Sudanese weapons, and of the Mahdist period. The only characteristic that seems typically identifiable with the period would be the various weapons including kaskara that were acid etched with the calligraphic Arabic script known as 'thuluth'. This heavy and broad Arabic script typically covers the entire blade.

I can say that the Peter Kull markings (and derivatives) as well as a lion marking were very much favored in Darfur, the western province of the Sudan, and where the kaskaras are somewhat more distinctly identifiable.

All best regards,
Jim

David · 21st May 2010, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RDGAC

I did try uploading to the forum, but unfortunately found that the forum's file server size limits are rather smaller than the images I'm uploading! Is there any way around that? I know ImageShack and the like are distinctly ephemeral storage means, but without uploading them here being possible I'm not sure where else to go.

Edit: Of course, I could do the intelligent thing, and crop the images so as to eliminate the honking great background area that's irrelevant to the weapon. I'll try that tomorrow and see what I get, as well as working on getting some better pics of that design.

Of course it is possible to upload them here, you just need to resize your images. If the software that you crop with doesn't allow you to resize then there are are internet sites that will do it for you. Rick is always recommending one whose url eludes me at the moment. Perhaps he will chime in.

FYI, i usually resize to about 7x10 at 72dpi. This is well within the means of our server to handle. There is really no need for you dpi to be anything higher since most computer screens are only capable of this resolution.

katana · 23rd May 2010, 12:58 PM

I've taken the liberty of uploading a selection of the images....

Below is the first Kaskara in the posting....

Regards David

.

katana · 23rd May 2010, 01:07 PM

Kaskara 2 .....

.

katana · 23rd May 2010, 01:24 PM

Kaskara 3 ....

.

Jim McDougall · 23rd May 2010, 08:41 PM

Thank you so much for enhancing these images David! It really is amazing, while these to some may look like beaten up, worn old swords....To myself, and anyone who has a passion for the history of North Africa and the ethnography, they are beautiful. The example with the triple fullers of course stands to be one of the earlier of the group. The others, it is hard to be sure as they seem more sheet steel stock with a vestigial central fuller in seeing better views.
Still, I enjoyed the search for an explanation for how 'kaskaras' MIGHT have been captured at Tel el Kebir........there remains of course the profound chance that at least some of these may have been acquired later as was once proposed. My goal was of course to find support for the captioning specified by RDG.

As I have also noted many times through the years, the British troops were quite impressed with the Sudanese warriors, and there was an enormous trend for bringing back souveniers from these campaigns. It has been a well known circumstance that families in much later years who have donated items of military veterans who have passed on to museums, only knew the assumed origins of the items. Often interpolated and anecdotal stories were relayed with the items, or even worsened as the items were handed down through a generation or two.

These resulting errors in captioning in no way take from the intent of memorial to the donors or the veteran, but simply present difficulties in using the items in scholarly study. Therefore correcting any data on captions or descriptions not only enhances the value of the item historically but reinforces the purpose of the museum in preserving that history, and honoring the veterans who collected the items.

An important duty in our upcoming recognition of our traditional Memorial Day, in which many of us recognize all those who serve and who have served militarily, and particularly all who have fallen in war or battle.

21st May 2010, 02:12 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	[QUOTE=RDGAC]While it's a little disappointing to find that our marking probably has nothing to do with the Mahdist uprising (which'd date the sword very nicely indeed, naturally), the mystery of what the design actually means is equally fascinating. One is inclined to wonder if there is any sort of trade directory for European swordsmiths of, say, the 16th and 17th centuries, which might enable one to discover (with a fair dose of conjecture) which blade-maker's mark was "appropriated" by the locals for use in their swords. Of course, it'd be just my luck if the maker turned out not to have a mark recorded. Anyway, on we go; next item is what I think is an Omani kattara. Meredydd Jones, Assistant Curator RDG[/QUOTE Actually there are numerous resources which do reflect the markings and various names/phrases etc. on blades of these periods and into modern times. It has been fairly well suggested in earlier discussions that this particular marking may well derive from those of Solingen maker Peter Kull, whose blades entered the Sudanese sphere along with numerous other Solingen blades. Actually it must be remembered that makers marks and the like were perceived as quality guarantees in Europe, and much in todays sense of marketing, they became widely copied. When these trade blades entered native markets, the emphasis placed on the markings in distributing them became perceived in many cases as imbuing them with power and other talismanic significance. Talismanic symbolism is key in the folk religion and superstition of these regions, and similar meaning can be found in the Arab 'aghrab', a device said to represent a scorpion and is meant to deter the evil eye. This device is so stylized that it is hard to discern that as what the figure represents, but the meaning remains firmly in place. The same type of application seems likely here, whether perceived to mean quality; the imbuing of power to the blade and its warrior or distinctly to deflect the forces of evil.....these are all potentially what may have been meanings, but as these would only have been known by who applied them, and again as perceived by others who used the blade..we can only guess. The fact that this apparantly distinctly North African derivative of these earlier makers marks cannot be specifically assigned to the Mahdist movement does not eliminate swords with the mark from thier potential as having been among their weapons. It would appear that this type marking was being used as early as the 1880s or before, and the blades found with the marking as late as 1916-17, even though on takoubas, were certainly much older. The blades were a precious commodity, and swords were typically remounted many times through generations, particularly when changing hands. As far as has been determined, there are really no known markings or stamps that would specify arsenal type application on Sudanese weapons, and of the Mahdist period. The only characteristic that seems typically identifiable with the period would be the various weapons including kaskara that were acid etched with the calligraphic Arabic script known as 'thuluth'. This heavy and broad Arabic script typically covers the entire blade. I can say that the Peter Kull markings (and derivatives) as well as a lion marking were very much favored in Darfur, the western province of the Sudan, and where the kaskaras are somewhat more distinctly identifiable. All best regards, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 21st May 2010 at 02:30 PM.

23rd May 2010, 12:58 PM	#7
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	I've taken the liberty of uploading a selection of the images.... Below is the first Kaskara in the posting.... Regards David . Attached Images

23rd May 2010, 01:07 PM	#8
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Kaskara 2 ..... . Attached Images

23rd May 2010, 01:24 PM	#9
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Kaskara 3 .... . Attached Images

21st May 2010, 12:23 AM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	RDG, in the future could you actually post your images directly to this forum. They are easy to access now, but next month or next year or so you are bound to take these off imageshack and then this will be a long and interesting discussion that has no illustrations of the weapon in question . If you need help we can tell you how to upload directly.

21st May 2010, 01:07 AM	#2
RDGAC Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: York, UK Posts: 167	I did try uploading to the forum, but unfortunately found that the forum's file server size limits are rather smaller than the images I'm uploading! Is there any way around that? I know ImageShack and the like are distinctly ephemeral storage means, but without uploading them here being possible I'm not sure where else to go. Edit: Of course, I could do the intelligent thing, and crop the images so as to eliminate the honking great background area that's irrelevant to the weapon. I'll try that tomorrow and see what I get, as well as working on getting some better pics of that design.

21st May 2010, 04:31 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	The link that Katana posted to the thread last year on this emigmatic marking brings up some interesting discussion. Now that I can see the marking, I recall that it did indeed come up in the key resource on takouba blades, Cabot-Briggs. I am inclined to follow the discourse there that suggests that this, as well as numerous versions of markings found on blades are indeed native interpretations of European markings on trade blades from generations before. The dramatic stylization results from not just degeneration through the reproduction process, but from the fact that these 'quality' marks became temporally adopted into local folk religion and talismanic significance. It would seem that many of the markings and characteristic motif found on blades are essentially cross cultural, and diffused along the trade routes that crisscrossed the Saharan regions into the Sudan. For example, the paired crescent moons that are almost quintessant on takouba blades are also often seen on kaskara blades. I believe we can be fairly certain that this marking is not a Mahdist symbol or associated in that respect, and while there is distinct astral motif favored on blades in the Sudan, this inscribed device is not representing a comet, but probably a developed symbol from earlier markings as noted.

21st May 2010, 09:00 AM	#4
RDGAC Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: York, UK Posts: 167	While it's a little disappointing to find that our marking probably has nothing to do with the Mahdist uprising (which'd date the sword very nicely indeed, naturally), the mystery of what the design actually means is equally fascinating. One is inclined to wonder if there is any sort of trade directory for European swordsmiths of, say, the 16th and 17th centuries, which might enable one to discover (with a fair dose of conjecture) which blade-maker's mark was "appropriated" by the locals for use in their swords. Of course, it'd be just my luck if the maker turned out not to have a mark recorded. Anyway, on we go; next item is what I think is an Omani kattara. Meredydd Jones, Assistant Curator RDG

23rd May 2010, 08:41 PM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	Thank you so much for enhancing these images David! It really is amazing, while these to some may look like beaten up, worn old swords....To myself, and anyone who has a passion for the history of North Africa and the ethnography, they are beautiful. The example with the triple fullers of course stands to be one of the earlier of the group. The others, it is hard to be sure as they seem more sheet steel stock with a vestigial central fuller in seeing better views. Still, I enjoyed the search for an explanation for how 'kaskaras' MIGHT have been captured at Tel el Kebir........there remains of course the profound chance that at least some of these may have been acquired later as was once proposed. My goal was of course to find support for the captioning specified by RDG. As I have also noted many times through the years, the British troops were quite impressed with the Sudanese warriors, and there was an enormous trend for bringing back souveniers from these campaigns. It has been a well known circumstance that families in much later years who have donated items of military veterans who have passed on to museums, only knew the assumed origins of the items. Often interpolated and anecdotal stories were relayed with the items, or even worsened as the items were handed down through a generation or two. These resulting errors in captioning in no way take from the intent of memorial to the donors or the veteran, but simply present difficulties in using the items in scholarly study. Therefore correcting any data on captions or descriptions not only enhances the value of the item historically but reinforces the purpose of the museum in preserving that history, and honoring the veterans who collected the items. An important duty in our upcoming recognition of our traditional Memorial Day, in which many of us recognize all those who serve and who have served militarily, and particularly all who have fallen in war or battle.