1481 - the world's earliest dated handgun

fernando · 19th May 2010, 07:47 PM

Fantastic imaculate pieces, Michael.
Say Alexander, that excelent example you posted; is the stock original or a modern reproduction?
And the iron bands and hook; are they from the period?
Fernando

Matchlock · 19th May 2010, 08:10 PM

Hi Fernando,

I am afraid the whole piece that Alexander posted is a modern copy. There is one rather similar in the Military Museum Prague and this one, in my eyes, is a copy too.

Best,
Michael

Philip · 25th May 2010, 08:37 AM

Dear Michael,
You might be interested in an article, "The World's Oldest Dated Gun" by the late British firearms expert Howard L. Blackmore, publ. in ARMS COLLECTING, Vol.34, No. 2, pp 39-47. He discusses a Chinese hand-cannon dated 1332 (now in the Historical Museum, Beijing), and includes photos of another example dated to ca. 1409 (Rotunda, Woolwich), and three further specimens dated 1421, 1423, and 1426 (S. Yoshioka Collection). All these are of bronze with inscriptions including the dates; the three Yoshioka pieces are of a type also known to have been in use in Vietnam early in the 15th cent. The Munich iron handgun which is the subject of this thread may be an early one indeed, but Mr. Blackmore, in his GUNS AND RIFLES OF THE WORLD (NY: 1965), illustrates two Hakenbuechsen which he believed may predate it: an iron one (Historisches Museum, Bern, no. 2193) believed to be late 14th cent., and a bronze specimen (National Historical Mus., Stockholm, no. 23136) attributed to the same period.

Matchlock · 2nd June 2010, 10:01 PM

Hi Philip,

Thank indeed your for your engaged research work.

I am sorry to say that the so called 1332 Chinese handgun is meanwhile known to be a fake - the shape of the cyphers is modern, so they must be a modern addition.

The other cited pieces I have not seen myself but as this is the European forum I confined both myself and my collection to this part of the northern hemisphere.

I posted the early Swiss pieces quoted by you on the forum some time ago. There is no doubt that the small stocked piece is datable around 1400, the hook being a working addition of ca. 1430.

Anyway, please note that the title of this my contribution clearly confines itself to dated, which per se excludes the Swiss pieces.

Let me point out that, in Europe, we generally hardly find any dated painting or any work of arts and crafts before ca. 1450! (tombstones in cathedrals excepted).

In the world of weaponry, and by the the staff of the leadimg museums, my 1481 haquebut barrel is acknowledged to be the earliest known dated European handgun (cannon barrels excluded); so could we agree on solving our discourse by replacing the world's in my title line by Europe's, o.k.? .

Best,
Michael

Philip · 3rd June 2010, 08:17 AM

Hi, Michael
I'd be interested in updating my reference material, please provide the source of the contention that the 1332 Chinese handgun is a fake. Though I am familiar with the gun only in photographs, the thought did cross my mind at one time when considering the piece's fairly crude exterior, in contrast to the careful attention to casting and finish on practically all of the other Chinese hand-cannons of the late medieval period (as well as slightly later Korean and Vietnamese examples) which have survived. The discrepancy is also notable when compared with the quality of casting of various utilitarian objects (bells and vessels, among other things) from China during the same time span.

That leaves the other dated examples in Blackmore's article which also predate 1481 by a good margin, but of course the argument is now moot since you have advised that the scope of your chronology excludes non-European cultures.

Please keep up the interesting posts. I am especially interested in the south German / Bohemian Schnappluntenschloss and its Portuguese and Oriental descendents, so look forward to being able to discuss these eventually.

Matchlock · 5th June 2010, 12:32 AM

Hi Philip,

I must admit to have forgotten where I read about the 1332 Chinese handgun. It probably was in some of the earlier volumes of the Zeitschrift für Historische Waffen- und Kostümkunde e.V., Berlin, 1897 and still being continued. Whenever I come across it I will let you know.

As I am not familiar with Chinese (and Far Eastern in general) weapons I cannot contribute as an expert to these. I just remember the shape of the cyphers being identical with Western modern cyphers.

I can tell from your use of the term of 'Schnappluntenschloss' that you are influenced by Rainer Daehnhardt's book Espingarda Feiticeira/The Bewitched Gun. I am sorry to say that from an impartial point of view, his book contains many essential mistakes regarding both terminology and dating. So the correct German term is of course Lunten-Schnappschloss but what he atually means would be Schwamm-Schnappschloss (snap tinderlock) as the guns he is talking about were not fired by a match cord (the heads of their tiny serpentines are far from being able to receive and hold match) but by a small and thin piece of glowing tinder (Schwamm). We have had this discussion before in several threads, very detailed and profusely illustrated, so you may wish to refer to them - especially as I published the same guns he did but with their correct origin (Nuremberg, instead of Bohemia) and date (ca. 1525, instead of 'ca. 1490' as Daehnhardt thought when erroneously following Arne Hoff's misdating of 1969.

Attached please find a characteristic Nuremberg made snap tinderlock arquebus of ca. 1525 and of the type I both inspected and photographed at large in the Západoceské Muzeum Pilsen. Of course the Pilsen armory got them from Nuremberg and they are still incorrectly labeled as Bohemian guns of ca. 1490 there - all based on Hoff's mistaken dating a gun of identical construction in the Landeszeughaus Graz to 'ca. 1490'. When first visiting Graz some 20 years ago I told the staff there that, as their gun was obviously a homemade Styrian production, it could not be dated before ca. 1525, being made after Nuremberg models. They then searched the city archives and found out that the maker's mark on that gun was the one of Peter Hofkircher, a gunsmith working nearby, who started furnishing guns to the Graz armory in 1524. So that was settled and has been regarded in all their publications ever since. After some discussions, it seems to me like Daehnhardt either does not have or does not wish to have knowledge of this fact because he continues dating all pieces too early.

Sadly, I cannot say much more on the Nuremberg (not Bohemian!) influences on the Oriental descendents, except that their lock pattern with the brass parts and springs, including their early German Renaissance decoration, of the 1520's was obviously closely followed by the Malaysian and Sri Lankan matchlocks while the Oriental butt stocks were orientated on the German double scroll style of the 1550's.

Best,
Michael

Matchlock · 5th June 2010, 12:56 AM

Though being of Styrian production, it closely follows the somewhat earlier Nuremberg models.

See also some historical sources of illustration clearly depicting the use of a small piece of glowing tinder in the tiny tubular heads of those delicate serpentines, instead of a match cord.

Best,
Michael

25th May 2010, 08:37 AM	#3
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	world's oldest? Dear Michael, You might be interested in an article, "The World's Oldest Dated Gun" by the late British firearms expert Howard L. Blackmore, publ. in ARMS COLLECTING, Vol.34, No. 2, pp 39-47. He discusses a Chinese hand-cannon dated 1332 (now in the Historical Museum, Beijing), and includes photos of another example dated to ca. 1409 (Rotunda, Woolwich), and three further specimens dated 1421, 1423, and 1426 (S. Yoshioka Collection). All these are of bronze with inscriptions including the dates; the three Yoshioka pieces are of a type also known to have been in use in Vietnam early in the 15th cent. The Munich iron handgun which is the subject of this thread may be an early one indeed, but Mr. Blackmore, in his GUNS AND RIFLES OF THE WORLD (NY: 1965), illustrates two Hakenbuechsen which he believed may predate it: an iron one (Historisches Museum, Bern, no. 2193) believed to be late 14th cent., and a bronze specimen (National Historical Mus., Stockholm, no. 23136) attributed to the same period.

2nd June 2010, 10:01 PM	#4
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Philip, Thank indeed your for your engaged research work. I am sorry to say that the so called 1332 Chinese handgun is meanwhile known to be a fake - the shape of the cyphers is modern, so they must be a modern addition. The other cited pieces I have not seen myself but as this is the European forum I confined both myself and my collection to this part of the northern hemisphere. I posted the early Swiss pieces quoted by you on the forum some time ago. There is no doubt that the small stocked piece is datable around 1400, the hook being a working addition of ca. 1430. Anyway, please note that the title of this my contribution clearly confines itself to dated, which per se excludes the Swiss pieces. Let me point out that, in Europe, we generally hardly find any dated painting or any work of arts and crafts before ca. 1450! (tombstones in cathedrals excepted). In the world of weaponry, and by the the staff of the leadimg museums, my 1481 haquebut barrel is acknowledged to be the earliest known dated European handgun (cannon barrels excluded); so could we agree on solving our discourse by replacing the world's in my title line by Europe's, o.k.? . Best, Michael Last edited by Matchlock; 3rd June 2010 at 02:58 AM.

5th June 2010, 12:32 AM	#6
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Philip, I must admit to have forgotten where I read about the 1332 Chinese handgun. It probably was in some of the earlier volumes of the Zeitschrift für Historische Waffen- und Kostümkunde e.V., Berlin, 1897 and still being continued. Whenever I come across it I will let you know. As I am not familiar with Chinese (and Far Eastern in general) weapons I cannot contribute as an expert to these. I just remember the shape of the cyphers being identical with Western modern cyphers. I can tell from your use of the term of 'Schnappluntenschloss' that you are influenced by Rainer Daehnhardt's book Espingarda Feiticeira/The Bewitched Gun. I am sorry to say that from an impartial point of view, his book contains many essential mistakes regarding both terminology and dating. So the correct German term is of course Lunten-Schnappschloss but what he atually means would be Schwamm-Schnappschloss (snap tinderlock) as the guns he is talking about were not fired by a match cord (the heads of their tiny serpentines are far from being able to receive and hold match) but by a small and thin piece of glowing tinder (Schwamm). We have had this discussion before in several threads, very detailed and profusely illustrated, so you may wish to refer to them - especially as I published the same guns he did but with their correct origin (Nuremberg, instead of Bohemia) and date (ca. 1525, instead of 'ca. 1490' as Daehnhardt thought when erroneously following Arne Hoff's misdating of 1969. Attached please find a characteristic Nuremberg made snap tinderlock arquebus of ca. 1525 and of the type I both inspected and photographed at large in the Západoceské Muzeum Pilsen. Of course the Pilsen armory got them from Nuremberg and they are still incorrectly labeled as Bohemian guns of ca. 1490 there - all based on Hoff's mistaken dating a gun of identical construction in the Landeszeughaus Graz to 'ca. 1490'. When first visiting Graz some 20 years ago I told the staff there that, as their gun was obviously a homemade Styrian production, it could not be dated before ca. 1525, being made after Nuremberg models. They then searched the city archives and found out that the maker's mark on that gun was the one of Peter Hofkircher, a gunsmith working nearby, who started furnishing guns to the Graz armory in 1524. So that was settled and has been regarded in all their publications ever since. After some discussions, it seems to me like Daehnhardt either does not have or does not wish to have knowledge of this fact because he continues dating all pieces too early. Sadly, I cannot say much more on the Nuremberg (not Bohemian!) influences on the Oriental descendents, except that their lock pattern with the brass parts and springs, including their early German Renaissance decoration, of the 1520's was obviously closely followed by the Malaysian and Sri Lankan matchlocks while the Oriental butt stocks were orientated on the German double scroll style of the 1550's. Best, Michael Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 5th June 2010 at 10:13 AM.

5th June 2010, 12:56 AM	#7
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	The Graz Snap Tinderlock Haquebut of ca. 1526-30, Misdated to 'ca. 1490 by Hoff Though being of Styrian production, it closely follows the somewhat earlier Nuremberg models. See also some historical sources of illustration clearly depicting the use of a small piece of glowing tinder in the tiny tubular heads of those delicate serpentines, instead of a match cord. Best, Michael Attached Images

19th May 2010, 07:47 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Fantastic imaculate pieces, Michael. Say Alexander, that excelent example you posted; is the stock original or a modern reproduction? And the iron bands and hook; are they from the period? Fernando

19th May 2010, 08:10 PM	#2
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Fernando, I am afraid the whole piece that Alexander posted is a modern copy. There is one rather similar in the Military Museum Prague and this one, in my eyes, is a copy too. Best, Michael

3rd June 2010, 08:17 AM	#5
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	Hi, Michael I'd be interested in updating my reference material, please provide the source of the contention that the 1332 Chinese handgun is a fake. Though I am familiar with the gun only in photographs, the thought did cross my mind at one time when considering the piece's fairly crude exterior, in contrast to the careful attention to casting and finish on practically all of the other Chinese hand-cannons of the late medieval period (as well as slightly later Korean and Vietnamese examples) which have survived. The discrepancy is also notable when compared with the quality of casting of various utilitarian objects (bells and vessels, among other things) from China during the same time span. That leaves the other dated examples in Blackmore's article which also predate 1481 by a good margin, but of course the argument is now moot since you have advised that the scope of your chronology excludes non-European cultures. Please keep up the interesting posts. I am especially interested in the south German / Bohemian Schnappluntenschloss and its Portuguese and Oriental descendents, so look forward to being able to discuss these eventually.