PALEMBANG HILT AND KERIS

[ganjawulung]

Not succeeded yet..
I've tried the first way (1) steamed the blade upon a pot of water (of course, it was an unused pot) for more than an hour -- hot, cold, then hot, and cold etc. Not moved at all. And (2) I took a big risk by heating the blade upon a small flame of kitchen gas -- hot, cold, and hot, cold. Not succeeded too... Very "stubborn"... (image below)

Then, I let it as it is again. And thinking of trying to clean the blade without submerging the hilt, of course... Still thinking how to do it.

GANJAWULUNG

[A. G. Maisey]

If I owned this keris I would not be brave enough to use either of these methods, and I cannot see how sufficient heat could be applied to the blade with either method to get the tang hot enough to encourage the tang to come free.

Buy a candle.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

If I owned this keris I would not be brave enough to use either of these methods, and I cannot see how sufficient heat could be applied to the blade with either method to get the tang hot enough to encourage the tang to come free.

Buy a candle.

Agree, don't capitulate.

[Moshah]

Wow, very risky! I really hope you to be careful

I just wonder was pak Ganja's hilt is the one called "palembang hulu burung" or was the attached pix is?

What is the difference between both (except the material difference)? I can see some similar carvings pattern there, but the style is not the same...

thanks in advance pals for letting me know...

[ganjawulung]

Originally Posted by Moshah

I just wonder was pak Ganja's hilt is the one called "palembang hulu burung" or was the attached pix is?

What is the difference between both (except the material difference)? I can see some similar carvings pattern there, but the style is not the same...

Dear Moshah,
Honestly, I am not the expert on this. Just collecting. I think Shahrial (Alamshah) could explain it well.

GANJAWULUNG

[DAHenkel]

Moshah - There are a lot of variations of keris hilts from South Sumatra. Pak Ganja's hilt is generally understood to be a Palembang hilt. Yours on the other hand probably comes from somewhere else in South Sumatra - I suspect Lampung. I recall a couple similar examples provenanced to Lampung anyway. However there is so little information on these areas and unless or until we find a knowledgable local collector the area will remain imperfectly understood. I was just in Palembang and visited all the main local museums but unfortunately the only weapons display - in the Sultan Mahmud Badruddin Museum - was small and included several obviously non-Palembang pieces. It was not an edifying experience...

[ganjawulung]

Thanks Dave,

I've sent message to Karaeng Kesuma in facebook to join this discussion, if he won't mind. He stays in Lampung, and has a couple of Sumatran keris photo collection in his facebook...

Btw, this Palembang hilt. Could I compose it with this silver pendokok?

GANJAWULUNG

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by DAHenkel

Moshah - There are a lot of variations of keris hilts from South Sumatra. Pak Ganja's hilt is generally understood to be a Palembang hilt. Yours on the other hand probably comes from somewhere else in South Sumatra - I suspect Lampung. I recall a couple similar examples provenanced to Lampung anyway. However there is so little information on these areas and unless or until we find a knowledgable local collector the area will remain imperfectly understood. I was just in Palembang and visited all the main local museums but unfortunately the only weapons display - in the Sultan Mahmud Badruddin Museum - was small and included several obviously non-Palembang pieces. It was not an edifying experience...

Hi, agreed with Dave's comments about both hilts. Palembang is a tricky place, as we know, it's a centre where many regional forms meet. There are locals in various keris/study groups, concentrating on the local forms. Karaeng Kesuma, is one such collector. There are others..

[ganjawulung]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Buy a candle.

Not succeeded yet, Alan. Not moved at all...

GANJAWULUNG

[ganjawulung]

Thanks Alan, and all,

The hilt is already unfixed, and I've cleaned the blade too....

GANJAWULUNG

[Jean]

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

Not succeeded yet..
I've tried the first way (1) steamed the blade upon a pot of water (of course, it was an unused pot) for more than an hour -- hot, cold, then hot, and cold etc. Not moved at all. And (2) I took a big risk by heating the blade upon a small flame of kitchen gas -- hot, cold, and hot, cold. Not succeeded too... Very "stubborn"... (image below)

Then, I let it as it is again. And thinking of trying to clean the blade without submerging the hilt, of course... Still thinking how to do it.

GANJAWULUNG

Hello Ganjawulung,
I was facing the same problem as yourself with 2 Bugis blades needing warangan and fitted with large ivory hilts strongly stuck to the peksi. I tried in vain to loose them by heating with a candle or small gas lighter and it did not work (I was probably not patient enough).
Today I decided to test a new strategy, namely to insert and heat the whole blade into our kitchen oven adjusted on "rotating heat" to ensure uniform temperature and set at 120°C, and it worked very well for the 2 hilts without any damage. The hilts were glued with traditional dark brown resin and not epoxy glue of course. It took me about 10 minutes to release the first hilt, and 5 for the second as the oven was still hot...
The advantage of this method is that the hilt is progressively and uniformely heated at the desired temperature unlike with a flame (ivory is a poorly conductive material), so there is less risk of cracking it... My concern was that the peksi would expand more than the hole with heat and could cause a crack to the hilt, but it fortunately did not occur and I feel fully confident to repeat the experience if needed.
Best regards
Jean

[A. G. Maisey]

You're a braver man than I am Jean.

In respect of pesi expansion causing a crack in the hilt:-

over a + 50 year period I have removed more hilts than I can remember from various types of blades, certainly the number of hilts I have removed would be somewhere in the hundreds. When I am at home I use a propane torch to heat the blade, when I am in Jawa I use either a candle or a small kerosene lamp. Removal of a hilt is something that I do as a very simple and basic operation that requires no thought and no interruption to work flow.
Never, ever, have I had a hilt crack during removal because of heat expansion.

I would not recommend any inexperienced person to use a propane torch.

[Jean]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

You're a braver man than I am Jean.

In respect of pesi expansion causing a crack in the hilt:-

over a + 50 year period I have removed more hilts than I can remember from various types of blades, certainly the number of hilts I have removed would be somewhere in the hundreds. When I am at home I use a propane torch to heat the blade, when I am in Jawa I use either a candle or a small kerosene lamp. Removal of a hilt is something that I do as a very simple and basic operation that requires no thought and no interruption to work flow.
Never, ever, have I had a hilt crack during removal because of heat expansion.

I would not recommend any inexperienced person to use a propane torch.

Dear Alan,
I did break one ivory hilt while trying to remove it after heating it and the sorsoran with a hair dryer set at maximum temperature (probably not hot enough) but I think that it was broken before and re-glued.
Best regards
Jean

[A. G. Maisey]

Jean, it might pay you to talk to a conservator, or perhaps specialist dealer in ivories about the optimum manner in which to treat and store ivory.

Additionally, you need to be aware that some woods used in Javanese keris hilts are recommended to be worn only at night and not to be exposed to sunlight.

The major problem with all heating methods other than the traditional one of direct low heat is that it is impossible to direct the heat to exactly the area required, you simply cannot control it to a sufficient degree.

By "low heat", I mean a heat which will not alter the degree of hardness in the blade. This is not particularly vital for a keris blade, but it can be an important consideration for western knives, cutlery, custom knives, and some eastern daggers.

[Jean]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Jean, it might pay you to talk to a conservator, or perhaps specialist dealer in ivories about the optimum manner in which to treat and store ivory.

Additionally, you need to be aware that some woods used in Javanese keris hilts are recommended to be worn only at night and not to be exposed to sunlight.

The major problem with all heating methods other than the traditional one of direct low heat is that it is impossible to direct the heat to exactly the area required, you simply cannot control it to a sufficient degree.

By "low heat", I mean a heat which will not alter the degree of hardness in the blade. This is not particularly vital for a keris blade, but it can be an important consideration for western knives, cutlery, custom knives, and some eastern daggers.

Alan,
Any decent conservator or specialized ivory dealer would be horrified by my ivory heat treatment method in the electric oven but it worked!
I would not expect that heating & cooling progressively a blade to 120°C could have any effect on the steel blade, do you? But exposing it to a naked gas flame like Pak Ganja could be more harmful?
For our education, would you please tell us which types of Javanese woods should not be exposed to sunlight?
Thanks and best regards
Jean
Jean

[ganjawulung]

Thanks to you, for all the advice,

@sajen: no, I won't give warangan to this blade. Or maybe yes, but not with "javanese way" of soaking method.
@shahrial: yes, agree. Palembang once used to be the centre of the sumatran keris, unfortunately many -- or if not almost all -- palembang kerises have almost all "gone to peninsula". I've chatted a lot with Karaeng in facebook, that according to him, offers of great sums of money from penninsula is really very tempting for everyone there... great money. Karaeng is only among few Palembang area people (he stays in Lampung, you know it already) who still maintains the family heirloom. Interesting collection...
@kai: yes, kai, it was more damar resin than 'javanese' method of shellac. More pressure fit, enhanced by rusty pesi and layer of damar resin. Much easier to remove javanese pressure fit hilts...
On the 'later ganja', with different metal material. Don't you think this keris was intentionally fitted with 'ganja wulung'?
@jean: I must agree with Alan. Not to brave enough to experiment in blade heating on oven. Heating the blade at such heat, of course not-not harming the blade...

Anyway, thanks to you all..
GANJAWULUNG

[kai]

Hello Jean,

Any decent conservator or specialized ivory dealer would be horrified by my ivory heat treatment method in the electric oven but it worked!

While metal is usually very forgiving, organic materials utilized for fittings (wood, horn, bone/stag, ivory, MOP, etc.) is susceptible to shifts in temperature and, especially, humidity. This could result in short-term damages like cracks but also long-time preservation might be affected... I'd strongly recomment to stick with the traditional candle approach (preferably blocking the hilt from radiating heat with a padded glove) and lots of patience (i.e. many cycles to loosen up a "stubborn" blade). Alan has worked on many more blades than me and if he says this method succeeds then this should be good enough.

I would not expect that heating & cooling progressively a blade to 120°C could have any effect on the steel blade, do you?

No, completely harmless.

But exposing it to a naked gas flame like Pak Ganja could be more harmful?

IMHO the main problem is the not-so-local application of the heat as well as the much more intense radiating heat possibly affecting the hilt.

Regards,
Kai

[BluErf]

Originally Posted by Jean

Alan,
Any decent conservator or specialized ivory dealer would be horrified by my ivory heat treatment method in the electric oven but it worked!

I'm not a conservator, but I extremely horrified by what you have done!

Though 120 degrees will do no damage to the blade, spare a thought for the hilt, for it is also an integral part of a complete keris. A good old hilt is a record of the carving skills and aesthetics of a period past. Destroying it is like burning books.

[rasdan]

Originally Posted by Jean

heat the whole blade into our kitchen oven adjusted on "rotating heat" to ensure uniform temperature and set at 120°C

Keris food channel.. Now i had heard everything..