PALEMBANG HILT AND KERIS

ganjawulung · 15th May 2010, 10:51 PM

Thanks Detlef, Moshah and Kai,

For this time being, I still keep it like it is. With the hilt firmly fixed. IMHO, it is not ivory but "duyung" or dugong hilt. You may look at the different brownish and yellowish colour of it. Images below, are different views of this hilt. The size, it seems bigger than usual...

I will try the last step to open the hilt. Then, what would you suggest the way to clean the blade without unfixing the hilt, please?

GANJAWULUNG

A. G. Maisey · 15th May 2010, 11:27 PM

Pak Ganja, removal of a firmly fixed hilt is not usually a problem.

If you use a candle or small kerosene lamp for the heat source, there is no possibility of doing damage to the hilt, provided you are reasonably careful.

I suggest that you should work with bare hands, so that you can feel how hot the blade and hilt become during the process, this will safeguard against over heating.

I can understand your caution with attempts to remove the hilt on this keris. I have had two Palembang tangs break while attempting to remove a rusted on hilt. I suspect that perhaps the adhesive that they used to use in that area may have had a corrosive effect.

If this were my keris I would try the heat first, but I would not exert excessive force in trying to twist it off.

If you are bound and determined not to remove the hilt, the blade can be cleaned by repeated brushing with a mild acid, and rinse with water. Freshly squeezed lime juice will do it.

It would probably be a good idea to coat the selut with nail polish, and to wrap the hilt with plastic cling wrap before you start. The nail polish will come off easily with acetone, when you finish the job.

ganjawulung · 15th May 2010, 11:56 PM

Thanks Alan,

With heat treatment, although only with small kerosene lamp ("teplok" in javanese), doesn't it hurt the blade? Because I like so much the blade too..

GANJAWULUNG

Sajen · 16th May 2010, 01:33 AM

No problem when you don't over heat the blade, after warangan it don't will be visible anymore.

BTW, very nice hilt and blade IMHO, is there a sheat?

Rick · 16th May 2010, 01:54 AM

Cover the area to be heated tightly with aluminum foil.
Heat transfer with no soot .

ganjawulung · 16th May 2010, 03:45 AM

Thanks Rick for the advice,

I would try to be brave to unfix it... but step by step. Maybe I would try to "steam" it first, not to heat it in direct flame...

@sajen, yes Detlef, it has a Palembang warangka. But still in repairement of the "gandar" side, broken a bit. Sure, later I will post the foto of it after it is ready..

Thanks, for all the advice.

GANJAWULUNG

A. G. Maisey · 16th May 2010, 04:01 AM

The heat from a candle or a small kero lamp (senthir) will definitely not hurt the blade.

Yes, it will get very dirty, but the soot just washes off with turps, and you need to clean and stain the blade anyway.

I would not go anywhere near it with steam, because unlike a direct heat, the steam is not controllable, and you do not want that hilt to get bathed in steam.

I've removed all sorts of hilts with heat, as I describe, not just keris hilts, but pedangs, tombaks, badiks, western custom knives, old western cutlery --- all sorts of blades from all sorts of hilts with all sorts of adhesives, including modern epoxies. Because I've had so much experience I usually use a propane torch when I'm at home, but I will never recommend that to somebody new at this. A candle or a little kero lamp will do exactly the same job, its just dirtier --- which doesn't matter at all, and slower, which also doesn't matter.

Afterthought:- even if you did get the blade really hot, you've got to take up to straw-blue to draw the temper from heat-treated steel, and this part of a keris blade is not heat-treated anyway, its still soft, so there's no temper to draw. Don't forget:- you're only heating the sorsoran. You just can't get it to this sort of heat with a candle. Direct heat will not hurt it.

kai · 23rd May 2010, 07:14 AM

Quote:

IMHO, it is not ivory but "duyung" or dugong hilt.

Forgot to comment earlier: Ivory is a general term and includes other tooth from animals like dugong, walrus, hippotamus, etc.

P.S.: It would be great if you could invite more Indonesian keris collectors to our little warung kopi! We all realize that the language barrier can be a challenge. Every contribution would be valuable and appreciated though!

BTW, are there any good translation services like babelfish that cover English to Bahasa Indonesia or Malay?

Regards,
Kai

ganjawulung · 23rd May 2010, 07:50 AM

Yes Kai,

It took a lot of patience, to repeat the same process -- hot, cold, hot, cold. More than any javanese keris. Yes, the "candle method" that Alan suggested, helped much the process.

The fixing material, seems to be traditional -- blackish, and rusty laquer. I don't know precisely what it is. Maybe like traditional javanese 'lacquer' (I don't know to describe it too), but more rusty... (picture below)

The "hard" ivory -- not elephant tusk -- also make the hilt difficult to remove, because of the narrow hole, and the rusty lacquer material. The pesi is shorter than javanese pesi, but still in good condition.

I've asked our Indonesian college to join this discussion group, but usually they participate passively, reading this discussion. They have some discussion group in Bahasa -- like FDK (Forum Diskusi Keris) in Yahoo with more than 200 members, and also you may see in Facebook too, there are some small groups of discussion. In Bahasa, of course...

GANJAWULUNG

15th May 2010, 10:51 PM	#1
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	Thanks Detlef, Moshah and Kai, For this time being, I still keep it like it is. With the hilt firmly fixed. IMHO, it is not ivory but "duyung" or dugong hilt. You may look at the different brownish and yellowish colour of it. Images below, are different views of this hilt. The size, it seems bigger than usual... I will try the last step to open the hilt. Then, what would you suggest the way to clean the blade without unfixing the hilt, please? GANJAWULUNG Attached Images

15th May 2010, 11:56 PM	#3
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	Thanks Alan, With heat treatment, although only with small kerosene lamp ("teplok" in javanese), doesn't it hurt the blade? Because I like so much the blade too.. GANJAWULUNG Attached Images

23rd May 2010, 07:50 AM	#9
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	Yes Kai, It took a lot of patience, to repeat the same process -- hot, cold, hot, cold. More than any javanese keris. Yes, the "candle method" that Alan suggested, helped much the process. The fixing material, seems to be traditional -- blackish, and rusty laquer. I don't know precisely what it is. Maybe like traditional javanese 'lacquer' (I don't know to describe it too), but more rusty... (picture below) The "hard" ivory -- not elephant tusk -- also make the hilt difficult to remove, because of the narrow hole, and the rusty lacquer material. The pesi is shorter than javanese pesi, but still in good condition. I've asked our Indonesian college to join this discussion group, but usually they participate passively, reading this discussion. They have some discussion group in Bahasa -- like FDK (Forum Diskusi Keris) in Yahoo with more than 200 members, and also you may see in Facebook too, there are some small groups of discussion. In Bahasa, of course... GANJAWULUNG Attached Images

15th May 2010, 11:27 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Pak Ganja, removal of a firmly fixed hilt is not usually a problem. If you use a candle or small kerosene lamp for the heat source, there is no possibility of doing damage to the hilt, provided you are reasonably careful. I suggest that you should work with bare hands, so that you can feel how hot the blade and hilt become during the process, this will safeguard against over heating. I can understand your caution with attempts to remove the hilt on this keris. I have had two Palembang tangs break while attempting to remove a rusted on hilt. I suspect that perhaps the adhesive that they used to use in that area may have had a corrosive effect. If this were my keris I would try the heat first, but I would not exert excessive force in trying to twist it off. If you are bound and determined not to remove the hilt, the blade can be cleaned by repeated brushing with a mild acid, and rinse with water. Freshly squeezed lime juice will do it. It would probably be a good idea to coat the selut with nail polish, and to wrap the hilt with plastic cling wrap before you start. The nail polish will come off easily with acetone, when you finish the job.

16th May 2010, 01:33 AM	#4
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,212	No problem when you don't over heat the blade, after warangan it don't will be visible anymore. BTW, very nice hilt and blade IMHO, is there a sheat?

16th May 2010, 01:54 AM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Cover the area to be heated tightly with aluminum foil. Heat transfer with no soot .

16th May 2010, 03:45 AM	#6
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	Thanks Rick for the advice, I would try to be brave to unfix it... but step by step. Maybe I would try to "steam" it first, not to heat it in direct flame... @sajen, yes Detlef, it has a Palembang warangka. But still in repairement of the "gandar" side, broken a bit. Sure, later I will post the foto of it after it is ready.. Thanks, for all the advice. GANJAWULUNG

16th May 2010, 04:01 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	The heat from a candle or a small kero lamp (senthir) will definitely not hurt the blade. Yes, it will get very dirty, but the soot just washes off with turps, and you need to clean and stain the blade anyway. I would not go anywhere near it with steam, because unlike a direct heat, the steam is not controllable, and you do not want that hilt to get bathed in steam. I've removed all sorts of hilts with heat, as I describe, not just keris hilts, but pedangs, tombaks, badiks, western custom knives, old western cutlery --- all sorts of blades from all sorts of hilts with all sorts of adhesives, including modern epoxies. Because I've had so much experience I usually use a propane torch when I'm at home, but I will never recommend that to somebody new at this. A candle or a little kero lamp will do exactly the same job, its just dirtier --- which doesn't matter at all, and slower, which also doesn't matter. Afterthought:- even if you did get the blade really hot, you've got to take up to straw-blue to draw the temper from heat-treated steel, and this part of a keris blade is not heat-treated anyway, its still soft, so there's no temper to draw. Don't forget:- you're only heating the sorsoran. You just can't get it to this sort of heat with a candle. Direct heat will not hurt it.