Where is this sheat from?

Sajen · 14th May 2010, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

. It could be probably not that poor at all when cleaned.

Hope so!

Moshah · 15th May 2010, 01:00 AM

That middle rib you called, is the "caping" or point, as explained in Spirit of Wood. And you also can see how identical this "caping" as to the coteng's.

It also appears in some aged keris tajong sheath.

The build shape is identical to the cirebonese sample that Sajen had shown, no doubt about it. However the "caping", "shoulder" and the "third eye of Shiva" is all the characteristic of a pattani's origin.

Cross pollination is obviously the reason why it is so identical to both region's design. Let's not forget the empus from pattani also originated from Java / south sumatra.

Of course I might be wrong too. Let's learn from each other

PenangsangII · 15th May 2010, 03:54 AM

Cirebon or Siam?

This thread reaffirm my personal belief that keris culture in Siam (Pattani, Songkhla, Singgora, Naratiwat etc...) could have been brought from Jawa, particularly Padjajaran and Cirebon.....

BluErf · 15th May 2010, 04:30 AM

My 1st impression was that this was a coteng sheath, but after closer inspection, I tend to agree with Alan that this is probably Cirebon/N Coast Jawa. The aesthetics are clearly different. In S. Thailand and N. Malaya where the coteng tajong comes from, the aesthetics is one of 'lanky' proportions. This sheath here is too 'fat', especially at the part where the batang joins to the sampir. Also, the sampir of a coteng tend to have 'boxier' feel, not straight rectangular, but having a deeper trough. Yes, seeing all thses sheaths and the Raja Mala hilt makes one want to think of the origin of the tajong and coteng as N Coast of Jawa.

Moshah · 15th May 2010, 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

Cirebon or Siam?

This thread reaffirm my personal belief that keris culture in Siam (Pattani, Songkhla, Singgora, Naratiwat etc...) could have been brought from Jawa, particularly Padjajaran and Cirebon.....

Salams,

I personally think you are right about that belief. Can see the traces of java influences in peninsular keris culture. As for here, the cirebonese wronko is also hold some resemblances to coteng's sampir.

By looking at the picture, the "caping" bears more percentage of similarities to the coteng sheath. Maybe a clearer picture from Sajen's crosspiece could be placed next to the coteng pix and to the cirebon iras example, where we can see clearly the similarities and differences, spot on.

The carving on the crosspiece, IMHO tries to emulate the "third eye of shiva". However, I am not sure whether Cirebonese sampir could have this kind of carving. Or perhaps the carving comes later, for some purposes. There are possibilities.

Gustav · 15th May 2010, 09:47 AM

In case of "composite" keris: the strangest photo ever I have seen, taken before 1920 probably in Aceh. Mendak-Selut are very close to ones on pompous Gowa keris (with hilts depicting Bhima(?) in lalitasana), hilts are looking like Banjarmasin. I remember to have seen a specimen very much like the left side sheath with a Madura hilt.
It seems, the left side keris have seen some practical use

.Pesi is the week point and is getting bent easily (according to english sailor tales about adventures in Singapore

)

Sajen · 15th May 2010, 12:12 PM

Sampir comparison.

Gustav · 15th May 2010, 06:30 PM

This sheath question is, of course, nothing new (something really worth to read: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=coteng+sheath). As every question, it is a possibility to show opinions, wishes and standfastness in holding and proclaiming opinions.

"The build shape is identical to the cirebonese sample that Sajen had shown, no doubt about it. However the "caping", "shoulder" and the "third eye of Shiva" is all the characteristic of a pattani's origin."

Dear Moshah,

however, in this case I probably have something to learn. At first, I wasn't aware, this second example of Sajen is a typical Cirebon sheath. If so, could you enlighten me, what are the typical characteristics of a Cirebonese sheath?

What you call "caping", "shoulder" and "the third eye of Shiva" - I really wouldn't know these are characteristics found only on a sheath from Pattani. It seems, I have greatly undervalued the importance of this region in keris culture till now.

Sajen · 15th May 2010, 07:59 PM

Hello Gustav,

look this both threads respective sheaths from Cirebon:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=cirebon

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=cirebon

Regards,

Detlef

Moshah · 15th May 2010, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

Dear Moshah,

however, in this case I probably have something to learn. At first, I wasn't aware, this second example of Sajen is a typical Cirebon sheath. If so, could you enlighten me, what are the typical characteristics of a Cirebonese sheath?

What you call "caping", "shoulder" and "the third eye of Shiva" - I really wouldn't know these are characteristics found only on a sheath from Pattani. It seems, I have greatly undervalued the importance of this region in keris culture till now.

Hi Gustav,

I'm sorry I could not enlighten u about Cirebonese sheath. I never had one, nor I have had one in my hand before. I put forth the differences simply by comparing the sample pictures that Sajen has uploaded, and few others I can see from the links.

From my untrained eyes, you can see that all the cirebonese crosspieces given as example here (either in links given or Sajen's pix), there are something identical at each of the left side of the crosspieces. Sorry I don't know the name of this features, but the feature that I am referring to looks like a cheek line at the left side of the cirebonese crosspiece, where both my coteng and Sajen's new sheath do not possess.

About the features (caping, shoulder & third eye of Shiva), I hope Sajen can scan & upload the Spirit of Wood pg 169, so that we all can see what I mean here.

Also I attach this picture taken from Artzi's sold item page, a coteng, which bear some similarities to Sajen's new sheath. Not 100% identical, right? I would say that the overall shape of Sajen's new sheath looks like it have Cirebonese influences while the features are of Coteng's.

I would also love to learn more about Cirebonese sheath, as much as I would love to own one!

Gustav · 15th May 2010, 09:06 PM

Moshah,

thank you very much for the explanation.

Do you call "cheek line" feature visible also here? : http://keris.fotopic.net/p56874076.html

Moshah · 15th May 2010, 09:12 PM

Hi Gustav,

Yes it was in that picture.

Sorry "cheek line" is not a proper term for it. I dunno what u called it, but what i meant is the line from upper crosspiece to lower, where the line is in between a "/" and a "k" in the watermark "http://keris.fotopic.net"

Gustav · 15th May 2010, 09:20 PM

Then this feature would appear also on a Cirebon wrongko?

Sajen · 16th May 2010, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moshah

Hi Gustav,

Yes it was in that picture.

Sorry "cheek line" is not a proper term for it. I dunno what u called it, but what i meant is the line from upper crosspiece to lower, where the line is in between a "/" and a "k" in the watermark "http://keris.fotopic.net"

It's called "lata" so far I know.

Sajen · 16th May 2010, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moshah

About the features (caping, shoulder & third eye of Shiva), I hope Sajen can scan & upload the Spirit of Wood pg 169, so that we all can see what I mean here.

I have taken a picture and I think that it is clear enough.

Moshah · 17th May 2010, 02:41 AM

Sorry for the pix orientation, pak Ganja. I just uploaded it straight from Artzi's.

It would not do us any harm if the wronko is Cirebonese or Coteng's. Pak Ganja has given good points in determining Cirebonese sheath. That is his area of expertise.

Coteng has never been an area of my expertise, nor that I am an expert. Also my lack of Cirebonese example and knowledge would also holds me no valid ground to express my point.

Aesthetic asides, I only see as what I stand from the points that I mentioned (bahu, caping, shiva 3rd eye). From Sajen's scanned pix of Spirit of Woods, it is easy to see why I think that way.

Of course I would not know about the bangunan, development of the wronko etc. If pak Ganja or any expert can elaborate on that, that would be a feast for me, as I can learn some more.

Gustav · 17th May 2010, 03:08 PM

Dear Moshah,

the features similar to Bahu, Caping and Mata Ketiga Siva are found on other keris sheath then coteng's.
Bahu (if it means the small ridge at the bottom og gonjo and not simply Pidakan) is visible on the Cirebonese (?) sheath from Hidayat's page (oncemore http://keris.fotopic.net/p56874076.html), Caping is similar to a common feature called Ri Cangkring, features related to Mata Ketiga Siva are Wideng on Javanese and Mata Ideng & Alis Pandji on Balinese sheaths.
The point is indeed, Sajen's sheath has no Loto or Pejetan and Wideng are very extensive.

The pictures are a keris from Banten (?) and Cirebon (?).

15th May 2010, 09:47 AM	#6
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	In case of "composite" keris: the strangest photo ever I have seen, taken before 1920 probably in Aceh. Mendak-Selut are very close to ones on pompous Gowa keris (with hilts depicting Bhima(?) in lalitasana), hilts are looking like Banjarmasin. I remember to have seen a specimen very much like the left side sheath with a Madura hilt. It seems, the left side keris have seen some practical use .Pesi is the week point and is getting bent easily (according to english sailor tales about adventures in Singapore ) Attached Images Last edited by Gustav; 15th May 2010 at 12:53 PM.

15th May 2010, 12:12 PM	#7
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,165	Sampir comparison. Attached Images

15th May 2010, 06:30 PM	#8
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	This sheath question is, of course, nothing new (something really worth to read: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=coteng+sheath). As every question, it is a possibility to show opinions, wishes and standfastness in holding and proclaiming opinions. "The build shape is identical to the cirebonese sample that Sajen had shown, no doubt about it. However the "caping", "shoulder" and the "third eye of Shiva" is all the characteristic of a pattani's origin." Dear Moshah, however, in this case I probably have something to learn. At first, I wasn't aware, this second example of Sajen is a typical Cirebon sheath. If so, could you enlighten me, what are the typical characteristics of a Cirebonese sheath? What you call "caping", "shoulder" and "the third eye of Shiva" - I really wouldn't know these are characteristics found only on a sheath from Pattani. It seems, I have greatly undervalued the importance of this region in keris culture till now. Last edited by Gustav; 15th May 2010 at 07:25 PM.

17th May 2010, 03:08 PM	#17
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	Dear Moshah, the features similar to Bahu, Caping and Mata Ketiga Siva are found on other keris sheath then coteng's. Bahu (if it means the small ridge at the bottom og gonjo and not simply Pidakan) is visible on the Cirebonese (?) sheath from Hidayat's page (oncemore http://keris.fotopic.net/p56874076.html), Caping is similar to a common feature called Ri Cangkring, features related to Mata Ketiga Siva are Wideng on Javanese and Mata Ideng & Alis Pandji on Balinese sheaths. The point is indeed, Sajen's sheath has no Loto or Pejetan and Wideng are very extensive. The pictures are a keris from Banten (?) and Cirebon (?). Attached Images Last edited by Gustav; 18th May 2010 at 12:16 AM.

15th May 2010, 01:00 AM	#2
Moshah Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 171	That middle rib you called, is the "caping" or point, as explained in Spirit of Wood. And you also can see how identical this "caping" as to the coteng's. It also appears in some aged keris tajong sheath. The build shape is identical to the cirebonese sample that Sajen had shown, no doubt about it. However the "caping", "shoulder" and the "third eye of Shiva" is all the characteristic of a pattani's origin. Cross pollination is obviously the reason why it is so identical to both region's design. Let's not forget the empus from pattani also originated from Java / south sumatra. Of course I might be wrong too. Let's learn from each other

15th May 2010, 03:54 AM	#3
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	Cirebon or Siam? This thread reaffirm my personal belief that keris culture in Siam (Pattani, Songkhla, Singgora, Naratiwat etc...) could have been brought from Jawa, particularly Padjajaran and Cirebon.....

15th May 2010, 04:30 AM	#4
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	My 1st impression was that this was a coteng sheath, but after closer inspection, I tend to agree with Alan that this is probably Cirebon/N Coast Jawa. The aesthetics are clearly different. In S. Thailand and N. Malaya where the coteng tajong comes from, the aesthetics is one of 'lanky' proportions. This sheath here is too 'fat', especially at the part where the batang joins to the sampir. Also, the sampir of a coteng tend to have 'boxier' feel, not straight rectangular, but having a deeper trough. Yes, seeing all thses sheaths and the Raja Mala hilt makes one want to think of the origin of the tajong and coteng as N Coast of Jawa.

15th May 2010, 07:59 PM	#9
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,165	Hello Gustav, look this both threads respective sheaths from Cirebon: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=cirebon http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=cirebon Regards, Detlef

15th May 2010, 09:06 PM	#11
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	Moshah, thank you very much for the explanation. Do you call "cheek line" feature visible also here? : http://keris.fotopic.net/p56874076.html

15th May 2010, 09:12 PM	#12
Moshah Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 171	Hi Gustav, Yes it was in that picture. Sorry "cheek line" is not a proper term for it. I dunno what u called it, but what i meant is the line from upper crosspiece to lower, where the line is in between a "/" and a "k" in the watermark "http://keris.fotopic.net"

15th May 2010, 09:20 PM	#13
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	Then this feature would appear also on a Cirebon wrongko?

17th May 2010, 02:41 AM	#16
Moshah Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 171	Sorry for the pix orientation, pak Ganja. I just uploaded it straight from Artzi's. It would not do us any harm if the wronko is Cirebonese or Coteng's. Pak Ganja has given good points in determining Cirebonese sheath. That is his area of expertise. Coteng has never been an area of my expertise, nor that I am an expert. Also my lack of Cirebonese example and knowledge would also holds me no valid ground to express my point. Aesthetic asides, I only see as what I stand from the points that I mentioned (bahu, caping, shiva 3rd eye). From Sajen's scanned pix of Spirit of Woods, it is easy to see why I think that way. Of course I would not know about the bangunan, development of the wronko etc. If pak Ganja or any expert can elaborate on that, that would be a feast for me, as I can learn some more.