Some more objects from the RDG - kaskara (?) and spears

VANDOO · 14th May 2010, 10:19 PM

A KASKARA IT DEFINITELY IS

.
FOR A GOOD WRITE UP ON THESE BY LEE CLICK ON THE PICTURE OF A KASKARA AT THE TOP OF THE PAGE. THAT WILL TAKE YOU TO THE HOME PAGE SCROLL DOWN TO THE CATEGORY AFRICA AND THEN CLICK KASKARA. THAT WILL TELL YOU JUST ABOUT EVERYTHING ABOUT THEM. THERE ARE OTHER POSTS YOU CAN SEARCH OUT OF THE DISCUSSION FORUMS AND ARCHIVES.
I WOULD KEEP THE REMAINS OF THE SCABBARD FOR AN EXAMPLE BUT NOT PUT THE SWORD BACK IN IT. LEATHER SCABBARDS ARE NORTORIOUS FOR CAUSING A BLADE TO RUST. SOMETIMES IT IS JUST BECAUSE OF THE MOSITURE THEY ATTRACT BUT THE CHEMICALS USED IN TANNING THE LEATHER ALSO CAN CAUSE EVEN WORSE RUSTING. THERE ARE MANY THINGS ONE CAN USE TO PRESERVE OR RESTORE LEATHER I PERSONALLY USE SOME MINK OIL CREAM. I ALSO USE IT ON MY SHOES WHICH IS WHAT IT WAS ORIGINALLY INTENDED FOR. THERE ARE POSTS ON PRESERVING LEATHER IN THE ARCHIVES ALSO. I AM SURE THE KASKARA FOLKS WOULD LIKE TO SEE THE OTHER EXAMPLES PERHAPS JUST ONE OR TWO PICTURES OF EACH WOULD SATE THEIR APPETITES.

Rick · 15th May 2010, 01:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

A KASKARA IT DEFINITELY IS

.
FOR A GOOD WRITE UP ON THESE BY LEE CLICK ON THE PICTURE OF A KASKARA AT THE TOP OF THE PAGE. THAT WILL TAKE YOU TO THE HOME PAGE SCROLL DOWN TO THE CATEGORY AFRICA AND THEN CLICK KASKARA. THAT WILL TELL YOU JUST ABOUT EVERYTHING ABOUT THEM. THERE ARE OTHER POSTS YOU CAN SEARCH OUT OF THE DISCUSSION FORUMS AND ARCHIVES.
I WOULD KEEP THE REMAINS OF THE SCABBARD FOR AN EXAMPLE BUT NOT PUT THE SWORD BACK IN IT. LEATHER SCABBARDS ARE NORTORIOUS FOR CAUSING A BLADE TO RUST. SOMETIMES IT IS JUST BECAUSE OF THE MOSITURE THEY ATTRACT BUT THE CHEMICALS USED IN TANNING THE LEATHER ALSO CAN CAUSE EVEN WORSE RUSTING. THERE ARE MANY THINGS ONE CAN USE TO PRESERVE OR RESTORE LEATHER I PERSONALLY USE SOME MINK OIL CREAM. I ALSO USE IT ON MY SHOES WHICH IS WHAT IT WAS ORIGINALLY INTENDED FOR. THERE ARE POSTS ON PRESERVING LEATHER IN THE ARCHIVES ALSO. I AM SURE THE KASKARA FOLKS WOULD LIKE TO SEE THE OTHER EXAMPLES PERHAPS JUST ONE OR TWO PICTURES OF EACH WOULD SATE THEIR APPETITES.

My only Kaskara resides outside of its scabbard permanently .

stephen wood · 15th May 2010, 03:24 PM

...thank you, very interesting.

It's so important to see the examples of kaskara which have been in Regimental Museums for so long - they serve as dating touchstones.

I think that they might have been captured in the subsequent Campaign in the Sudan since at Tel El Kebir the Egyptians were a regular army - many of whom were later deployed with Baker and Hicks.

Notice that the "moons" are quite well defined - not the squiggles we see on later blades.

Is it possible that the "wire" is in fact very fine twisted leather?

Jim McDougall · 15th May 2010, 05:17 PM

Thank you so much RDGAC for posting this fascinating example, and as Stephen has noted, it is great to see examples that have been in museums for such a long time as provenance is such an important key in the study of weapons.
I am inclined to agree also with Stephen, that these kaskaras seem more likely to have been acquired in later campaigns against Mahdist forces, as the Egyptian forces had been largely striving for more modern European type militarization since the time of Muhammed Ali. With that being the case, it would not seem that medieval style broadswords would have been concurrent with modern type arms.

However, it is noted that at the time of Muhammed Ali's invasion of the Sudan in 1819, the Sudanese tribes had no central authority and tribal infighting was carried out with primitive weaponry. By the time of the Mahdist uprisings in the 1870s the Mahdists were described as poorly clothed, and armed only with sticks and stones. Despite this, they were apparantly able to overpower assembled Egyptian forces and acquire stores of arms and ammunition. It is not made clear what these captured arms were, but the inclusion of the ammunition term obviously suggests emphasis on guns.
It appears that much of the Mahdist supply was obtained in the same way, as captured materials from previous battles are mentioned as sources.

It is known that broadsword blades began to enter the trans Saharan cultural sphere sometime long before this period, as these weapons are described in some of the early narratives of c.1830s and 40s. It is also known that the native made blades with these type fullers, as well as the crescent moons in opposed pair, were said to be 'made in the north'. Exactly what 'north' is meant is unclear, but if it was as far north as Egyptian areas, it would certainly bring interesting perspective to the kaskara. It would certainly seem plausible that in the centuries of Mamluk domain in Egypt, an armourers tradition must have been extant, we know that it was for mail.

Therefore, the questions stand....would there have been use of the kaskara among infantry ranks in the Egyptian army of c.1882? Would captured weaponry taken from Egyptian forces by the Mahdi, and used to equip his 'Ansar' have included these broadswords? Would the description of 'primitive weapons' used by Sudanese tribes mean 'ancient broadswords'?

I'd sure like to hear opinions on these.

Meanwhile, this kaskara, excels in its history as it has remained in situ for such a long time, and that it came out of campaigns in these regions in these times seems secure, regardless of exact circumstances.

I hope we might see the others also, and know if there are similar details in provenance.

All best regards,
Jim

RDGAC · 17th May 2010, 01:37 PM

Hmm. Gentlemen, you may well have a point - and I call myself an historian by training!

The 4th Dragoon Guards were, indeed, involved (albeit on a small scale) in the Mahdi uprising and its attempted suppression subsequent to the events of 1882. To quote Mr. Brereton once more:

Quote:

In September 1884 the Government belatedly decided to despatch a relief force to rescue General Gordon, besieged in Khartoum by the rebellious Mahdi. Now Egypt and the Sudan were of course the lands of that "ship of the desert", the camel; ergo, the force must include a specially-raised Camel Corps of some 1,200 British officers and men, about half of whom were to be found by all the cavalry regiments at home. The cavalry contingent was divided into a "Heavy" and a "Light Regiment, the former comprising two officers and 43 other ranks from the Household Cavalry and each of the Dragoon Guards and Dragoon regiments in England, the "Light" being similarly found from the Hussars. The detachment from the 4th Dragoon Guards... sailed with the rest of the Heavies from Portsmouth on September 26th and disembarked at Alexandria on October 7th.

Having been introduced to their unaccustomed 22-hand mounts and gleaned some rudiments of "camelmanship" they learned, with some relief, that they were not actually expected to fight on the beasts as "cavalrymen", but were to be employed solely as mounted infantry. The force reached Korti, some 900 miles up the Nile on Christmas Day, and here General Sir Herbert Stewart was despatched with the Camel Corps and some infantry to establish a strongpoint at Abu Klea, near the Blue Nile. On January 17th (1889) the column of 1,800 men was attacked by a horde of 9,000 Mahdi fanatics, losing eleven officers and 77 men killed and 115 wounded, though they slew at least 1,100 of the "Fuzzy-Wuzzies" in their desperate seven-hour fight. This action cost the 4th Dragoon Guards detachment both officers - Darley and Law - and seven men killed and five others wounded. (Ibid., pp. 262-263.)

From this, it seems clear that the 4th DG were indeed sent into the Sudan, although given the small scale of the action at Abu Klea (for which they didn't receive a battle honour, incidentally, owing to being present only in detachment strength), I do wonder whether there would have been much opportunity for trophy-hunting; this is especially so in the light of comments regarding the poor state of arms in the Mahdist forces, and their subsequent augmentation with modern, captured Egyptian equipment, some 15 years earlier.

I will, naturally, remove the kaskara from its scabbard forthwith in order to avert the progress of further corrosion. With regard to the wire, I suppose that it might conceivably be fine leather, although it doesn't look, or feel, like it to my distinctly inexpert eye. If only I might send a sample.

Kaskara two en route!

Marc · 17th May 2010, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RDGAC

With regard to the wire, I suppose that it might conceivably be fine leather, although it doesn't look, or feel, like it to my distinctly inexpert eye. If only I might send a sample.

In the pics it LOOKS like iron wire, but pictures can be so misleading... But, if metallic, it should be cold at thouch, although that may take a bit of experience to tell. Anyway, if it's iron, it's going to be magnetic, even if corroded. If copper or brass, it shouldn't be desintegrating without some degree of an annoying green residue lying around and staining things. And, in any event, if not metallic, it should... react... to a candle's flame that would... happen... to be lying near by...

RDGAC · 18th May 2010, 02:06 PM

Kaskara #2, similar in proportions to #1 but with a single fuller running for approximately 10in (25cm) from cross-guard to its termination, and an unusual change in the depth of the edge, for want of a better phrase, some 13in (32cm) from the blade's tip. Seemed to be sharper than the previous blade, and indeed the sharpest of all, albeit with several chips and nicks in the blade.

In moderate to good condition, at least compared to the others, with a minimum of damage to the blade and its grip intact. Little pitting and only small levels of rust, once again treated with oil and G0000 wire wool, have been found on this blade. There seem to be no markings, at least that I can make out. The grip appears to be of cowhide or something similar, and its stitching is happily intact. The two langets, however, are both bent, in the same direction, presumably indicative of poor care or possibly battle damage; perhaps in the case of the langet that has bent outwards, an enemy blade slipped down and forced it out? Overall the most complete of the four, scabbard notwithstanding.

Length overall: 39.5in (100cm),
Length blade (cross-guard to tip): 37.6in (88cm),
Width at widest point (ricasso): 1.6in (4.2cm),

Overall views:
http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/2909/img0400de.jpg
http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/828/img0408uj.jpg

Blade, tip to base, obverse (some images may require rotation):
http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/392/img0402uk.jpg
http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/5691/img0403fy.jpg
http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/5562/img0404co.jpg

Cross-guard, grip and pommel, obverse and reverse respectively:
http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/64/img0405j.jpg
http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/7903/img0407e.jpg

(The stitching holding the cowhide - or whatever it is - together is visible in the first picture.)

View of distorted langets:
http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/2551/img0411l.jpg

Two views showing the alteration experienced by the edge in depth, ~13in short of the tip:
http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/5701/img0412ol.jpg
http://img532.imageshack.us/img532/2069/img0413m.jpg

A fairly flexible blade, though by no means as bendy as the last I shall put up. On with the show, and our next example is what I believe to be a somewhat unusual specimen that has me a little intrigued.

14th May 2010, 10:19 PM	#1
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	A KASKARA IT DEFINITELY IS . FOR A GOOD WRITE UP ON THESE BY LEE CLICK ON THE PICTURE OF A KASKARA AT THE TOP OF THE PAGE. THAT WILL TAKE YOU TO THE HOME PAGE SCROLL DOWN TO THE CATEGORY AFRICA AND THEN CLICK KASKARA. THAT WILL TELL YOU JUST ABOUT EVERYTHING ABOUT THEM. THERE ARE OTHER POSTS YOU CAN SEARCH OUT OF THE DISCUSSION FORUMS AND ARCHIVES. I WOULD KEEP THE REMAINS OF THE SCABBARD FOR AN EXAMPLE BUT NOT PUT THE SWORD BACK IN IT. LEATHER SCABBARDS ARE NORTORIOUS FOR CAUSING A BLADE TO RUST. SOMETIMES IT IS JUST BECAUSE OF THE MOSITURE THEY ATTRACT BUT THE CHEMICALS USED IN TANNING THE LEATHER ALSO CAN CAUSE EVEN WORSE RUSTING. THERE ARE MANY THINGS ONE CAN USE TO PRESERVE OR RESTORE LEATHER I PERSONALLY USE SOME MINK OIL CREAM. I ALSO USE IT ON MY SHOES WHICH IS WHAT IT WAS ORIGINALLY INTENDED FOR. THERE ARE POSTS ON PRESERVING LEATHER IN THE ARCHIVES ALSO. I AM SURE THE KASKARA FOLKS WOULD LIKE TO SEE THE OTHER EXAMPLES PERHAPS JUST ONE OR TWO PICTURES OF EACH WOULD SATE THEIR APPETITES.

15th May 2010, 03:24 PM	#3
stephen wood Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 227	...thank you, very interesting. It's so important to see the examples of kaskara which have been in Regimental Museums for so long - they serve as dating touchstones. I think that they might have been captured in the subsequent Campaign in the Sudan since at Tel El Kebir the Egyptians were a regular army - many of whom were later deployed with Baker and Hicks. Notice that the "moons" are quite well defined - not the squiggles we see on later blades. Is it possible that the "wire" is in fact very fine twisted leather?

15th May 2010, 05:17 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Thank you so much RDGAC for posting this fascinating example, and as Stephen has noted, it is great to see examples that have been in museums for such a long time as provenance is such an important key in the study of weapons. I am inclined to agree also with Stephen, that these kaskaras seem more likely to have been acquired in later campaigns against Mahdist forces, as the Egyptian forces had been largely striving for more modern European type militarization since the time of Muhammed Ali. With that being the case, it would not seem that medieval style broadswords would have been concurrent with modern type arms. However, it is noted that at the time of Muhammed Ali's invasion of the Sudan in 1819, the Sudanese tribes had no central authority and tribal infighting was carried out with primitive weaponry. By the time of the Mahdist uprisings in the 1870s the Mahdists were described as poorly clothed, and armed only with sticks and stones. Despite this, they were apparantly able to overpower assembled Egyptian forces and acquire stores of arms and ammunition. It is not made clear what these captured arms were, but the inclusion of the ammunition term obviously suggests emphasis on guns. It appears that much of the Mahdist supply was obtained in the same way, as captured materials from previous battles are mentioned as sources. It is known that broadsword blades began to enter the trans Saharan cultural sphere sometime long before this period, as these weapons are described in some of the early narratives of c.1830s and 40s. It is also known that the native made blades with these type fullers, as well as the crescent moons in opposed pair, were said to be 'made in the north'. Exactly what 'north' is meant is unclear, but if it was as far north as Egyptian areas, it would certainly bring interesting perspective to the kaskara. It would certainly seem plausible that in the centuries of Mamluk domain in Egypt, an armourers tradition must have been extant, we know that it was for mail. Therefore, the questions stand....would there have been use of the kaskara among infantry ranks in the Egyptian army of c.1882? Would captured weaponry taken from Egyptian forces by the Mahdi, and used to equip his 'Ansar' have included these broadswords? Would the description of 'primitive weapons' used by Sudanese tribes mean 'ancient broadswords'? I'd sure like to hear opinions on these. Meanwhile, this kaskara, excels in its history as it has remained in situ for such a long time, and that it came out of campaigns in these regions in these times seems secure, regardless of exact circumstances. I hope we might see the others also, and know if there are similar details in provenance. All best regards, Jim

18th May 2010, 02:06 PM	#7
RDGAC Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: York, UK Posts: 167	Kaskara #2, similar in proportions to #1 but with a single fuller running for approximately 10in (25cm) from cross-guard to its termination, and an unusual change in the depth of the edge, for want of a better phrase, some 13in (32cm) from the blade's tip. Seemed to be sharper than the previous blade, and indeed the sharpest of all, albeit with several chips and nicks in the blade. In moderate to good condition, at least compared to the others, with a minimum of damage to the blade and its grip intact. Little pitting and only small levels of rust, once again treated with oil and G0000 wire wool, have been found on this blade. There seem to be no markings, at least that I can make out. The grip appears to be of cowhide or something similar, and its stitching is happily intact. The two langets, however, are both bent, in the same direction, presumably indicative of poor care or possibly battle damage; perhaps in the case of the langet that has bent outwards, an enemy blade slipped down and forced it out? Overall the most complete of the four, scabbard notwithstanding. Length overall: 39.5in (100cm), Length blade (cross-guard to tip): 37.6in (88cm), Width at widest point (ricasso): 1.6in (4.2cm), Overall views: http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/2909/img0400de.jpg http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/828/img0408uj.jpg Blade, tip to base, obverse (some images may require rotation): http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/392/img0402uk.jpg http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/5691/img0403fy.jpg http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/5562/img0404co.jpg Cross-guard, grip and pommel, obverse and reverse respectively: http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/64/img0405j.jpg http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/7903/img0407e.jpg (The stitching holding the cowhide - or whatever it is - together is visible in the first picture.) View of distorted langets: http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/2551/img0411l.jpg Two views showing the alteration experienced by the edge in depth, ~13in short of the tip: http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/5701/img0412ol.jpg http://img532.imageshack.us/img532/2069/img0413m.jpg A fairly flexible blade, though by no means as bendy as the last I shall put up. On with the show, and our next example is what I believe to be a somewhat unusual specimen that has me a little intrigued.