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Old 13th May 2010, 07:02 PM   #1
Jim McDougall
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Excellent post Lucian!!! and welcome to the forum!!!
Its great to have another here from Romania, as this history is both complex and incredibly fascinating, and your insight is most valuable. Beautiful illustrations also, thank you for posting them.

All the very best,
Jim
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Old 17th May 2010, 07:07 PM   #2
Samik
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Great post Lucian and thank you very much for the splendid info!

Those beautiful frescoes are very similar (I dare to say almost identical) to those found in Kosovo and other places of former Yugoslavia. It appears Serbs similarly (as well as other adjacent ethnicities) to Wallachians used a mix of western and eastern military equipment. For example you'll find a military saint depicted with classic heater shield , lance and a sword on one hand but also a composite bow with a Kipcak/Cuman style quiver as well (in which the arrows are pointed arrowheads up):



Monastery Decani, Kosovo 1330-1350



Church of Saint Kliment , Macedonia cca. 1295

Sabres of both the classic steppe style (riveted hilts and small pommel caps) as well as "paramerions" (essentially weapons with sword hilts and curved blades) are present as well (furthermore Maces are common secondary weapon depicted, instead of the more western European war-hammers).
There are two great websites that host a big number of photographs of the aforementioned "Yugoslav" frescoes
http://www.srpskoblago.org/Archives/ and
http://sankire.narod.ru/Balkani.html

I have looked through most of the wall-paintings on the Srpsko Blago website so if anyone's interested I can point-out the relevant ones (with respect to arms and armour).

Lucian in case you have some more info on the arms and armour from Wallachia/Moldavia etc. feel free to post it , id be very interested myself. It seems there were many similarities between the various south-eastern principalities and kingdoms.

Kind Regards,
Samuel
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Old 17th May 2010, 08:35 PM   #3
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It is debatable whether the warriors on the frescoes are Serb or Greek or Bulgarian. In fact, at 1295, Macedonia was not part of the Serbian Kingdom.

Given the common state entity and close ties between Walalchians, Bulgarians and Cumans in the 12-13th centuries, it is not surprising that the arms and armor were shared as well.

When looking at frescoes, we also have to remember that the equipment depicted is also based on church cannons and on the artist's own images of how a warrior should look like. Some of the equipment may have been copied down from earlier frescoes, so pictorial evidence alone cannot be completely relied upon, and has to be examiend combined with archaeological finds, written sources, etc.

Regards,
Teodor
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Old 17th May 2010, 11:21 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TVV
It is debatable whether the warriors on the frescoes are Serb or Greek or Bulgarian. In fact, at 1295, Macedonia was not part of the Serbian Kingdom.

Given the common state entity and close ties between Walalchians, Bulgarians and Cumans in the 12-13th centuries, it is not surprising that the arms and armor were shared as well.

When looking at frescoes, we also have to remember that the equipment depicted is also based on church cannons and on the artist's own images of how a warrior should look like. Some of the equipment may have been copied down from earlier frescoes, so pictorial evidence alone cannot be completely relied upon, and has to be examiend combined with archaeological finds, written sources, etc.

Regards,
Teodor
Splendid observation Teodor ,
the depiction of armour in particular seem to have had a great deal of anachronism (e.g. the continuous portrayal of scale/ lamellar armour).As to the ethnicity of the warriors saints I personally think its negligible as for example the Bulgarian 14th century version of manasses chronicle has illustrations with similar figures. Furthermore you'll find very similar/identical portrayal of warrior saints in Kosovar/Serbian frescoes. Coming back to the accuracy of the depiction of arms and armour, some pieces however do have novelties in them, especially in terms of weapons. You can see yelman-less sabres and "paramerions" as well as the cuman-style quivers in the first half of the 14th century , whereas the early 15th century fresco of a trio of warrior-saints (cca. 1408-1420) presents an interesting "development" ( manasija monastery)




Note the bow-case of the central figure , he has two arrows in it with its fletching pointed upwards , which is more characteristic of Anatolian Turks (there is an article on a similar matter by Russ Mitchell in volume 4 of journal of medieval military history). The rightmost figure of St Nikita sports a sabre with a quite visible yelmen, which is again more typical of later weapons.

You can compare those with earlier depictions (such as the one in my earlier post) and with the depiction of St. Nicetas from Gracanica (1321-22)


Note the lack of yelmen as well as the "habaki" part between the hilt and the blade.. again a feature more characteristic of earlier sabres. Swords are sometimes presented in anachronistic way (some appearing even after two centuries e.g. you'll find an identical depiction of a sword from a 12th century fresco in a 14th century one etc.) but some are "modern" in their appearance ,e.g. pieces that have semi-curved cross-guard and even hand and a half grips. Those examples of sabres/quivers as well as swords are in my opinion a sign that not all of those fresco depictions are necessarily "outdated" or entirely fantastical. Some are filled with immense attention to detail that can in fact rival the art from Western Europe.

Regards,
Samuel
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Old 18th May 2010, 12:49 AM   #5
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Samuel,

Good points, supported with perfect illustrations. The blade on St. Nikita's sabre is actually very similar to some swords captured at the second siege of Vienna, more than 2 centuries later - certainly an example of a type that was just starting to appear in Europe. The grip with the forefinger over the crossguard is also remarkable and further shows that the painter must have had a good amount of exposure to warriors of the time, maybe even having some military experience himself.

The second fresco shows the habaki-like plate at the base of the blade, while the garment is conviniently left open to reveal what looks like mail sewn inside. This is where the problems with frescoes start - reenactors tend to see things on some frescoes, which are more the product of conjecture. For example, if that really mail sewn inside, and if so, how about the trousers (same pattern on the outside) with those strange plates on the knees? And then the wild speculation starts.

Overall though you are correct - frescoes provide valuable insight into the arms and armor in the Balkans in the Middle Ages, but they have to be examined with caution to discern what the artist copied from his surroundings, what he copied from older images and what was completely his imagination. And we should be careful to restrain our own imagination somewhat as well.

Thanks for the nice images,
Teodor
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Old 21st May 2010, 07:22 PM   #6
Samik
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Since I cannot edit my previous post and seeing that the second picture somewhat disappeared I'm re-uploading the depiction of St. Nicetas from the Gracanica fresco (1321-22)



Thank you both Teodor and Lucian for your knowledgeable (and much needed) insight !

Regards,
Samuel
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Old 25th October 2020, 03:50 AM   #7
shayde78
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We must be just a week from Halloween, since I found myself reading an article on this topic. Even sportier is that, as I finished the article, I noticed the author's name looked familiar. I'm quite sure she is a fellow forumites.
Anyway, I wanted to link to the article in this thread for reference.

Also, why not resurrect a zombie thread during this witching season?

https://heritagearmssa.com/2017/11/1...d-the-impaler/
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Old 18th May 2010, 12:21 AM   #8
Lucian
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Default Samik, you are right!

Actually a lot of very old churches, but especially the Cozia's church frescoes, are in the Serbian style. Mircea the Old had many relations and alliances with the Serbians. The style we can name it Serbian but I think it would be more correct to name it Byzantine.
Talking about Kossovo, Mircea the Old provided some troops (around 3000 soldiers it is mentioned in several recent articles an even in some history books but I found nothing from that era and I have no idea if were infantry, archers or light cavalry) for the Battle from Kossovo Polje in 1389. I suppose were light cavalry because were supposed to move really fast for a long trip.
In that battle were so many nations that I am almost not surprised about the outcome whom everybody said that is their victory. I am even amazed that they made a cohesion between so many groups.
Coming back to the Wallachian and especially the Moldavian swords, I found an interesting work related to the representation of Saint George on stove tiles from the fourteenth century and also an interesting conclusion:
"One can also note the character of weapons depicted. Sabers appear on
the tiles with St. George mostly in Wallachia (9), while there are only 2 from
Moldavia and 1 in Transylvania. Unlike the sword, the sabre was hardly known
in the medieval west. It was a more oriental type of weapon, re-introduced in
South-Eastern Europe during the fifteenth century due to the conflicts with the Turks. This indicates that in Wallachia such oriental weapons were much more familiar in those times than in Moldavia or Transylvania." The study is at this LINK .
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