searching for the right dapur??

[Gustav]

For a little bit of variation, why not comment on the current symbolic meaning of this dhapur and mention how and why we often find this particular form as a family pusaka? This might be a bit more interesting than playing the file-clerk game.[/QUOTE]

This were very interesting. From a well known source : Tilam Upih ("sleeping mat") - the Tuah of this Dhapur is that it bestows peace and relaxation upon the owner, becouse of this we find many Keris that are handed down as Pusaka Keris through a family are of this Dhapur.

Probably is this Dhapur a good "catalyst" for the spiritual power of certain Pamor's? There must be a question of suitability between Dhapur and Pamor.

A very interesting early Keris Dhapur Tilam Upih is depicted in Jensen's Krisdisk (sorry for mentioning this source every time), with elongated Blumbangan (Mbata Ngadeg) and Kawi inscription (gold, probably one of the oldest kinatah(?)) on Gonjo.

It were very interesting to learn to know, what are differences between Dhapur Brojol and Tilam Upih, then between Tilam Upih and Tilam Sari: what is the meaning of Tikel Alis and Tingil?

A keris collector clearly should be at the minimum a good ethnologist.

[sirek]

As far as I can find the description of this pamor:
(according to the book: Pamoratlas written by :
Ing. E.A.N v. Veenendaal, private publication in Dutch)

it is also described that in different places different names are used for the pamor Tejo-Kinurung:

South central Java- Adeg-Wenkon
Surakarta - Adeg-Tiga
East Java - Adeg-Telunger (Three upright Lines)

The description of the pamor (according to the book):

Some collectors believe the magic of this pamor lies in the field of leadership authority and prestige,
making it especially suitable for people who work for the State.
And it is good for health and protection of the owner and his family.

I would describe the main differences:
Dhapur Brojol has only a Pejetan and Dhapur Tilam Upih has a Pejetan and
one Tikel Alis and Tilam Sari has a Pejetan one Tikel Alis and on the Greneng
one or two Thingil.

[Gustav]

I would describe the main differences:
Dhapur Brojol has only a Pejetan and Dhapur Tilam Upih has a Pejetan and
one Tikel Alis and Tilam Sari has a Pejetan one Tikel Alis and on the Greneng
one or two Thingil.[/QUOTE]

Yes, these are the visual, formal differences. I would be interested in differences regarding the content, substance.

[A. G. Maisey]

Adeg tiga (adeg telu, tri adeg) and tejo kinurung are all essentially the same pamor, the difference, if there is one at all, between adeg tiga and tejo kinurung is only in the spacing of the lines of pamor, but those lines of pamor are made in the same way with multi folds of pamor set between heavier layers of iron, and turned side on to produce a pamor miring motif with the three lines of pamor at 90 degrees to the core.

However, adeg wengkon is a completely different pamor to these and it is one of the most difficult pamors to make well. Adeg wengkon consists of a layer of (usually) unfolded pamor material laid against the core, and then the iron with one centrally placed strip of pamor miring laid over the core + pamor layer. Repeated both sides of blade. The result is the wengkon as mlumah, and the single adeg as miring.

I cannot emphasise too strongly how difficult it is to produce a good adeg wengkon --- it appears to be simple, but it is very far from that.

In olden times the Susuhunan of Surakarta would usually give a keris with adeg wengkon to newly appointed bupatis. This was symbolic of the bupati's duty of care to the people for whom he was responsible. The wengkon was the protective power of the bupati, the line of adeg was symbolic of his people.

[sirek]

it seems that much of what has been written about a keris contains
many misconceptions, and therefore creates confusion.
(despite the good will of the writer!)

Thank you for willing to point out and explain these misconceptions.

[A. G. Maisey]

Oh yes Sirek.

Oh most definitely yes.

And this applies to all aspects of the keris.

I believe there has probably been more rubbish written about the keris than any other ethnographic object.Certainly more rubbish written about the keris than any other weapon.

With pamor, you need to understand how the pamor has been made before you can reliably identify the motif, its no good trying to match what it looks like to a picture.

Often you cannot see exactly how it has been made from a photograph and often the maker will have failed to execute a pamor without error, which complicates the matter.

[Rick]

As for dapurs my questions would be:

Who ?
Where ?
When ?
and Why ... ?