searching for the right dapur??

ganjawulung · 3rd May 2010, 04:05 AM

I agree with you too in some way,

But is it forbidden to do "file-clerk game", "name game" (your term) in this forum? I know, you are more knowledgeable than us. But I think we can not avoid this plaything like this in the keris world. I still keep your words too, that "keris is kraton art"...

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The names of the various dhapurs are rooted in the past.

What has been driven home to me again, and again, and again over the years by a number of people, is that keris art is Karaton art, thus only a Karaton has the right and the obligation to bestow a name for a dhapur, or a pamor, upon a keris. Similarly, only a Karaton can determine if a keris is legitimate in its interpretations, or not.

It follows that within the area where a Karaton is paramount, only those keris which fall within the guidelines accepted by that Karaton can be accepted as legitimate representations of the Karaton's art..

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

For this reason, I believe that if ever we wish to involve ourselves in this most extreme of all Name Games, which is the naming of the dhapur and pamor of a keris, we must at all times quote the pakem or reference that we are using as our guide.

To simply give an opinion is less than useless, no matter who gives that opinion, because no person now living can over-rule the parameters that have been previously set by a Ruler, except the current Ruler, and if the source of the opinion is not based in a karaton's guidelines, then it is a very arrogant person indeed who is prepared to give an opinion without either quoting his reference, or providing an argument to support the opinion.

How about other "details names"? Is it forbidden too, if we call it "jejeran" in spite of hilt? or "warangka", in spite of "sheath"? Or "pamor", in spite of damascene? Or Malay term? and so on..

Thanks for your respond...

GANJAWULUNG

A. G. Maisey · 3rd May 2010, 05:11 AM

No Pak Ganja, of course its not forbidden, in fact, I feel that probably most people who read this forum, and contribute to it, love this name/classification thing.

I know I used to. I can still remember when I was a little kid the thrill I got when I could tell the difference between Jogja keris dress and Solo keris dress.

The name-game is central to collecting, not only keris, but just about everything, in fact, there are some areas of collecting where the whole point of the collection is to get a whole, complete, set of names of whatever.

It is interesting to know the names by which people in Solo, or Bali, or anywhere else name the various forms of keris and their features, but many, if not most of those names can be translated into English, and other languages, so, from my perspective I don't have the smallest problem with having somebody calling a warangka a scabbard, or a jejeran a hilt or handle, or a mendak a hilt ring, or a pendok a scabbard cover, or a wilah a blade.

We cannot really use "damascene" instead of pamor, but we could use "pattern welding" instead of pamor.

I don't have a problem with somebody describing a blade as having 11 waves, rather 11 luk.

I don't have a problem with somebody telling me a blade has a central ridge, rather than an ada-ada.

I don't really care how people describe something, keris or anything else, provided I can get a relatively clear picture of what it is they are describing.

Bear one thing in mind Pak Ganja:- most people who contribute to discussion in this forum cannot read nor understand either Indonesian or Javanese. They have not the slightest idea of the correct pronunciations, and the words in these languages are, for them, exotic, strange words that carry a certain mysticism with them.

Further, most people who contribute have not been involved with keris in any serious way, for very long, I'd guess that most have under 20 years in study of the keris, so most are seeking some form of knowledge or understanding.Whatever we can do to make the gaining of this knowledge and understanding easier for them is something that just might cement their interest.

How many know that a sogokan is a poker, or a blumbangan is a pond, or that the kembang kacang is a bean flower, and in fact in this useage, a euphemism?

But there comes a time in our experience of those things in which we cherish an interest, for a greater depth of understanding.

My continual carping about the name-game and denigration of the importance of names is intended as an attempt to get people to ask exactly what it is that that cranky old so&so Maisey is always blurting on about.

Most will probably write my comments off as evidence of my ever advancing years, but if I succeed in getting just one person to think about the keris as a cultural icon that deserves the most strenuous investigation, then I will consider that I have achieved my objective.

To address the concept of the keris as "karaton art".

As an art object, this is unquestionably so. However, as we probe deeper into the nature of the keris, we realise that this is but one aspect of the many which go to make the whole.

Thus, when we consider the art of the keris, we need to consider against the background of a recognised royal art form.

When we consider other aspects of the keris, we need to consider against the applicable background.

From my point of view, this discussion has nothing to do with knowledge already held.

It has everything to do with the awakening in some person or persons of a thirst for knowledge which we do not already hold.

So it is that I will continue to belittle the search for names and continue to attempt to get people to think about the keris in terms of that which is as yet still unknown.

Pak Ganja, I feel that I need to reject your comment that I know more than others.

I do not.

But I do hold some different knowledge than that held by others, and my well founded beliefs are also often different to the beliefs of others.

However, from my point of view, my involvement in most discussions here has not the objective of providing my knowledge or beliefs to others, rather, it has the objective of awakening curiosity in others and hopefully of encouraging others to go further in the search for true knowledge of the keris than I have gone.

As long as knowledge is considered to be only the ability to name and classify, then all the mysteries of this cultural icon will remain unresearched and forever hidden. If my line of thought in respect of names and classifications can have the effect of causing only one person to go further in learning than I have gone, then I will consider that I have been successful.

David · 3rd May 2010, 02:06 PM

I have to agree with Alan for the most part hear. Knowing the names of dhapurs and pamor patterns isn't so much knowledge as it is recitation. What i am personally more curious about are the "whys" and the "hows". With so many pamors and dhapurs, why THIS one or THAT one? These cultural choices have deeper meanings that i rarely hear people discussing. How does one relate to their keris as a cultural/spiritual symbol? What are the practices involved? How is this different today than it was in the 19th century or in the 14th century. How different is the Hindu approach to the keris than the Islamic approach? Of course some of these questions may be more difficult or even impossible to answer, but they are far more interesting to me than what current day collecters call the pamor or dhapur of any given keris.

Sajen · 3rd May 2010, 02:53 PM

I think that this is a typical "collector"-problem that in this forum so many questions about dhapur and pamor. Collectors try to collect the rare dhapurs and pamors and "hunting" for this (and I am not a exception). A second point, like Alan approach already, a lot of the members are not familar with the javanese culture, or better not so deep involved like Alan or the indonesian members. But I am every time happy when here are discussions from this "inner circle" and read this with great avidity. And I think that I am not the only one.

Detlef

sirek · 3rd May 2010, 05:56 PM

A big difference of course is: growing up in a culture where the dagger is a part of cultural heritage, or someone who is interested and becomes a keris-collector on the other side of the world.

And in my opinion the language is the biggest problem, when I look for information, I first look in books written in my own language.

Like my believe that this is pamor Tejo-Kinurung.
I've looked in the book "The kris part 2” of Tammens page:138-139
( I know that these books are not always give the right information)

But this is what Tammens wrote:

Tejo Kinurung: “Three times lightning”
Not a general pamor motif, but certainly quite impressive.
At first glance it resembles a kekumus in a wengkon, but this is not
correct. The empu deliberately placed both outer lines more towards
the middle, so it cannot possibly be classified as wengkon.

So that was my guide to come to the conclusion that it was:
pamor Tejo-Kinurung. And therefore a comment given by someone with a different perspective on things is so appreciated. (not only by me!)

So thank you all for doing this..

and I'm now convinced that it is indeed pamor: Adeg-Tiga

A. G. Maisey · 3rd May 2010, 11:17 PM

Don't be too convinced Sirek.

Yes, Pak Ganja calls it adeg tiga, and if I picked it up somewhere and I was talking to somebody about it, I'd call it it adeg tiga.

But adeg tiga is Indonesian.

adeg means standing (amongst other meanings) in both Javanese and Indonesian, but tiga means three in Indonesian only, not in Javanese.

So what does somebody who is Javanese-Javanese call it?

What is it called in Central Jawa as opposed to Jakarta as opposed to East Jawa as opposed to the North Coast?

What if somebody decides that it does not quite conform exactly to adeg tiga parameters in some way and wants to call it something else entirely?

One of the great products of this classification business associated with keris is that it is a wonderful generator of conversation and discussion. Effectively you can discuss all day and be no more knowledgeable at the the time you go to bed than you were when you woke up, but you have managed to fill the day with talk.

I've just about reached the point where I'm prepared to accept any name or any classification, provided that the reference is given. What I mean by this is that I look askance at an opinion that is not backed up by reference to some generally accepted source.

So, we have the situation here where Pak Ganja and I agree, but if Pak Ganja said it was adeg tiga, and I called it some name that he had never heard of, he would be quite justified in asking what my reference was.

If I said that I'd learnt this name from a book on cake decorating that my wife had, well, that would say it all, wouldn't it?

But what if I said, well, that's what we call it in my village.

Then Pak Ganja would store this other name away as an alternative used in one place.

However, when it comes down to appraisal as an art work, only one name should be applied, and that is the name used under the aegis of a karaton.

Sajen · 3rd May 2010, 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Don't be too convinced Sirek.

Yes, Pak Ganja calls it adeg tiga, and if I picked it up somewhere and I was talking to somebody about it, I'd call it it adeg tiga.

But adeg tiga is Indonesian.

adeg means standing (amongst other meanings) in both Javanese and Indonesian, but tiga means three in Indonesian only, not in Javanese.

So what does somebody who is Javanese-Javanese call it?

What is it called in Central Jawa as opposed to Jakarta as opposed to East Jawa as opposed to the North Coast?

What if somebody decides that it does not quite conform exactly to adeg tiga parameters in some way and wants to call it something else entirely?

One of the great products of this classification business associated with keris is that it is a wonderful generator of conversation and discussion. Effectively you can discuss all day and be no more knowledgeable at the the time you go to bed than you were when you woke up, but you have managed to fill the day with talk.

I've just about reached the point where I'm prepared to accept any name or any classification, provided that the reference is given. What I mean by this is that I look askance at an opinion that is not backed up by reference to some generally accepted source.

So, we have the situation here where Pak Ganja and I agree, but if Pak Ganja said it was adeg tiga, and I called it some name that he had never heard of, he would be quite justified in asking what my reference was.

If I said that I'd learnt this name from a book on cake decorating that my wife had, well, that would say it all, wouldn't it?

But what if I said, well, that's what we call it in my village.

Then Pak Ganja would store this other name away as an alternative used in one place.

However, when it comes down to appraisal as an art work, only one name should be applied, and that is the name used under the aegis of a karaton.

It's now late in the evening here in Germany and I have had a hard day. By reading your post I have to laugh maybe the first time this day!

Thank you for that Alan,

Detlef

ganjawulung · 4th May 2010, 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Yes, Pak Ganja calls it adeg tiga, and if I picked it up somewhere and I was talking to somebody about it, I'd call it it adeg tiga.

But adeg tiga is Indonesian.

adeg means standing (amongst other meanings) in both Javanese and Indonesian, but tiga means three in Indonesian only, not in Javanese.

So what does somebody who is Javanese-Javanese call it?

Tiga (please spell in English way -- teegaw) in "higher" (kromo) javanese, means "three" too.

So, if we count "one, two, three, four..." in the ordinary or common javanese (ngoko) then it would be "siji, loro, telu, papat..." but in higher javanese (krama), then it should be "setunggal, kalih, tiga (or tigo), sekawan..."

In daily javanese, if we speak to other people in the same rank of society (common people to common people), then it would not be wrong too if we call the same name of pamor as "adeg telu". But if you speak to a higher rank people, you should better say as "adeg tiga/tigo"...

It is the same way if you mention other pamor name, as "beras wutah" (common javanese), then in higher javanese or krama (kromo), you would say the same meaning but in more polite way as "wos wutah". It depends on with whom you speak to. If you speak to common people (common people speaks to common people), it is okay if you say to him or her as pamor "beras wutah". But if you speak to a higher rank people, then it is more polite if you then mention "wos wutah" (more polite way, of mentioning "beras wutah")

The highest rank of javanese, "krama inggil" (if a common people speak to his King, or highest level person), then you may say as "wos wutah" too. It is the most polite way to mention "beras wutah"...

The same way if you say it as "kembang kacang" (common javanese or "ngoko"), then in higher (krama) javanese you may say it as "sekar kacang". Also other name of pamor "sekar pala" (higher javanese), if spelled by common people it would be "kembang pala" ('nutmeg' flower?)

Any way, thanks Alan for responding it. I agree, it will be too complicated to explain this.

GANJAWULUNG

3rd May 2010, 05:11 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,047	No Pak Ganja, of course its not forbidden, in fact, I feel that probably most people who read this forum, and contribute to it, love this name/classification thing. I know I used to. I can still remember when I was a little kid the thrill I got when I could tell the difference between Jogja keris dress and Solo keris dress. The name-game is central to collecting, not only keris, but just about everything, in fact, there are some areas of collecting where the whole point of the collection is to get a whole, complete, set of names of whatever. It is interesting to know the names by which people in Solo, or Bali, or anywhere else name the various forms of keris and their features, but many, if not most of those names can be translated into English, and other languages, so, from my perspective I don't have the smallest problem with having somebody calling a warangka a scabbard, or a jejeran a hilt or handle, or a mendak a hilt ring, or a pendok a scabbard cover, or a wilah a blade. We cannot really use "damascene" instead of pamor, but we could use "pattern welding" instead of pamor. I don't have a problem with somebody describing a blade as having 11 waves, rather 11 luk. I don't have a problem with somebody telling me a blade has a central ridge, rather than an ada-ada. I don't really care how people describe something, keris or anything else, provided I can get a relatively clear picture of what it is they are describing. Bear one thing in mind Pak Ganja:- most people who contribute to discussion in this forum cannot read nor understand either Indonesian or Javanese. They have not the slightest idea of the correct pronunciations, and the words in these languages are, for them, exotic, strange words that carry a certain mysticism with them. Further, most people who contribute have not been involved with keris in any serious way, for very long, I'd guess that most have under 20 years in study of the keris, so most are seeking some form of knowledge or understanding.Whatever we can do to make the gaining of this knowledge and understanding easier for them is something that just might cement their interest. How many know that a sogokan is a poker, or a blumbangan is a pond, or that the kembang kacang is a bean flower, and in fact in this useage, a euphemism? But there comes a time in our experience of those things in which we cherish an interest, for a greater depth of understanding. My continual carping about the name-game and denigration of the importance of names is intended as an attempt to get people to ask exactly what it is that that cranky old so&so Maisey is always blurting on about. Most will probably write my comments off as evidence of my ever advancing years, but if I succeed in getting just one person to think about the keris as a cultural icon that deserves the most strenuous investigation, then I will consider that I have achieved my objective. To address the concept of the keris as "karaton art". As an art object, this is unquestionably so. However, as we probe deeper into the nature of the keris, we realise that this is but one aspect of the many which go to make the whole. Thus, when we consider the art of the keris, we need to consider against the background of a recognised royal art form. When we consider other aspects of the keris, we need to consider against the applicable background. From my point of view, this discussion has nothing to do with knowledge already held. It has everything to do with the awakening in some person or persons of a thirst for knowledge which we do not already hold. So it is that I will continue to belittle the search for names and continue to attempt to get people to think about the keris in terms of that which is as yet still unknown. Pak Ganja, I feel that I need to reject your comment that I know more than others. I do not. But I do hold some different knowledge than that held by others, and my well founded beliefs are also often different to the beliefs of others. However, from my point of view, my involvement in most discussions here has not the objective of providing my knowledge or beliefs to others, rather, it has the objective of awakening curiosity in others and hopefully of encouraging others to go further in the search for true knowledge of the keris than I have gone. As long as knowledge is considered to be only the ability to name and classify, then all the mysteries of this cultural icon will remain unresearched and forever hidden. If my line of thought in respect of names and classifications can have the effect of causing only one person to go further in learning than I have gone, then I will consider that I have been successful. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 3rd May 2010 at 06:16 AM.

3rd May 2010, 02:06 PM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,228	I have to agree with Alan for the most part hear. Knowing the names of dhapurs and pamor patterns isn't so much knowledge as it is recitation. What i am personally more curious about are the "whys" and the "hows". With so many pamors and dhapurs, why THIS one or THAT one? These cultural choices have deeper meanings that i rarely hear people discussing. How does one relate to their keris as a cultural/spiritual symbol? What are the practices involved? How is this different today than it was in the 19th century or in the 14th century. How different is the Hindu approach to the keris than the Islamic approach? Of course some of these questions may be more difficult or even impossible to answer, but they are far more interesting to me than what current day collecters call the pamor or dhapur of any given keris.

3rd May 2010, 02:53 PM	#4
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,269	I think that this is a typical "collector"-problem that in this forum so many questions about dhapur and pamor. Collectors try to collect the rare dhapurs and pamors and "hunting" for this (and I am not a exception). A second point, like Alan approach already, a lot of the members are not familar with the javanese culture, or better not so deep involved like Alan or the indonesian members. But I am every time happy when here are discussions from this "inner circle" and read this with great avidity. And I think that I am not the only one. Detlef

3rd May 2010, 05:56 PM	#5
sirek Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 171	A big difference of course is: growing up in a culture where the dagger is a part of cultural heritage, or someone who is interested and becomes a keris-collector on the other side of the world. And in my opinion the language is the biggest problem, when I look for information, I first look in books written in my own language. Like my believe that this is pamor Tejo-Kinurung. I've looked in the book "The kris part 2” of Tammens page:138-139 ( I know that these books are not always give the right information) But this is what Tammens wrote: Tejo Kinurung: “Three times lightning” Not a general pamor motif, but certainly quite impressive. At first glance it resembles a kekumus in a wengkon, but this is not correct. The empu deliberately placed both outer lines more towards the middle, so it cannot possibly be classified as wengkon. So that was my guide to come to the conclusion that it was: pamor Tejo-Kinurung. And therefore a comment given by someone with a different perspective on things is so appreciated. (not only by me!) So thank you all for doing this.. and I'm now convinced that it is indeed pamor: Adeg-Tiga

3rd May 2010, 11:17 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,047	Don't be too convinced Sirek. Yes, Pak Ganja calls it adeg tiga, and if I picked it up somewhere and I was talking to somebody about it, I'd call it it adeg tiga. But adeg tiga is Indonesian. adeg means standing (amongst other meanings) in both Javanese and Indonesian, but tiga means three in Indonesian only, not in Javanese. So what does somebody who is Javanese-Javanese call it? What is it called in Central Jawa as opposed to Jakarta as opposed to East Jawa as opposed to the North Coast? What if somebody decides that it does not quite conform exactly to adeg tiga parameters in some way and wants to call it something else entirely? One of the great products of this classification business associated with keris is that it is a wonderful generator of conversation and discussion. Effectively you can discuss all day and be no more knowledgeable at the the time you go to bed than you were when you woke up, but you have managed to fill the day with talk. I've just about reached the point where I'm prepared to accept any name or any classification, provided that the reference is given. What I mean by this is that I look askance at an opinion that is not backed up by reference to some generally accepted source. So, we have the situation here where Pak Ganja and I agree, but if Pak Ganja said it was adeg tiga, and I called it some name that he had never heard of, he would be quite justified in asking what my reference was. If I said that I'd learnt this name from a book on cake decorating that my wife had, well, that would say it all, wouldn't it? But what if I said, well, that's what we call it in my village. Then Pak Ganja would store this other name away as an alternative used in one place. However, when it comes down to appraisal as an art work, only one name should be applied, and that is the name used under the aegis of a karaton.