Interesting big sized javanese keris

A. G. Maisey · 30th April 2010, 09:15 AM

I think I'm missing your point here Kai.

We can find figure such as fiddle back and curly grain of various types in many different trees from the artic circle to the tropics.

One of the major types of curly figure is what we call compression grain, this is where you get figure as the result of constant prevailing winds, or it can occur adjacent to a large branch, where it will often finish up as feather crotch or one of the other crotch variants.

Genetics can also play a role in providing fancy figure, and there also seems to be a strng argument for mineral uptake from the soil having an influence.

What I am saying here is all opinion that I have picked up from being around cabinet makers, stock makers, and musical instrument makers for most of my life. It is if you like, "trade belief".

To the best of my knowledge the academics who study this type of thing have not yet come up with any definite reasons for the formation of fancy figure in wood, about all they seem to be able to say is that there are many reasons for this occurrence of fancy grain, and those reasons are not yet fully understood..

Can you expand on your statement, especially the effect that a monsoonal climate can have in creating a curly grain?

kai · 1st May 2010, 08:46 AM

Hello Alan,

I wasn't referring to the usually chatoyant effects you've shown examples of but rather to strongly contrasting woods as in the attached pic (courtesy of rsword). Will post some more links later when I have more time. The latter wood types seem to be actively selected for in N Malaya and are supposed to be the result of more pronounced dry seasons (possibly coupled with harsh growing conditions like on windy cliffs).

Regards,
Kai

A. G. Maisey · 1st May 2010, 11:29 AM

Thanks Kai, I see what you're getting at now.

The only theorising that I've come across that relates to colour variations like is that when you get a wide variation in colour in the sap wood what you are looking at is the result of infection or damage to the tree. However, the way in which a log is sawn also has a huge effect on the final material. There is very often a wide colour variation between the sap wood and the heart wood in a tree.

The grain in the material of the example you have shown runs along the width of the wrongko top, from one end to the other. This means that it has been cut from a length of timber that has been sawn from the length of the trunk. A tree grows outwards from its core, so when you have a poor season, or a dry season, or a very good season, you can see this reflected in the growth rings that radiate from the core of the trunk.

Looking at the example that you have posted, Kai, I believe that what we are looking at is the result of the way in which the log was cut. There are several techniques used for cutting a log that will produce different effects in the grain shown in the final plank. The most common technique used to produce fancy grain material is called quarter sawing, a technique that results in the growth rings falling between 80 and 90 degrees to the face of the plank.This is done by first cutting the log into quartersthrough it, and then sawing each of those quarters longitudinally, producing increasingly smaller planks as you move to the outside of the quarter.

If we look at this example, we can see very pale wood at the extreme right, then moving left a darker wood, and at the far left a small touch of pale wood again. The pale wood would be sap wood, and the dark wood would be heart wood. The log that produced the material from which this wrongko was carved was sawn in a way to maximise the colour variation between heart wood and sap wood, and at the same time to maximise the chatoyant effect of the curly grain.

The image of a log cross section might clarify how this can be done.

Then again there are the other factors of genetics and disease.

Sajen · 1st May 2010, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Alan,

I wasn't referring to the usually chatoyant effects you've shown examples of but rather to strongly contrasting woods as in the attached pic (courtesy of rsword). Will post some more links later when I have more time. The latter wood types seem to be actively selected for in N Malaya and are supposed to be the result of more pronounced dry seasons (possibly coupled with harsh growing conditions like on windy cliffs).

Regards,
Kai

Hello Kai,

the wood from the sampir you posted seems to be from ketenga wood which so far I know you only have in Malaysia.

Regards,

Detlef

Battara · 1st May 2010, 03:36 PM

IN the region there is also the nara tree that has a red core and a brown outer wood. Could other trees in the region also have similar characteristics?

A. G. Maisey · 1st May 2010, 11:07 PM

Other trees all over the world share these characteristics.

All trees have heart wood (the core) and sap wood (the outer wood).

Almost invariably these materials differ in colour.

I've never seen it, but I have been told that the sap wood of black ebony is in fact white.

drdavid · 1st May 2010, 11:31 PM

Hi Alan, a very instructive line up. I wonder how many timbers the common name Akasia is given to in Indonesia. I think interesting too to think about what Akasia (botanical classification Acacia auriculiformis) is related to botanically. References regard it as the same species as one of the Australian wattles (which itself has at least 5 common names). The Tasmanian blackwood you showed is Acacia Melanoxylon, another of the Acacia family (of which there are 1200 worldwide). I think it would be extremely difficult to pick many of these species from a piece of wood alone.
drd

A. G. Maisey · 2nd May 2010, 03:43 AM

Only the one, I think, David.

Its a very recent timber, dating from probably only about the late 1970's. At that time it started to be planted all over Jawa to green the environment, then a few people tried the trunk base and root area of the tree for wrongkos, and found that it was most suitable for this use. Its not an expensive wood, but it has much to recommend it as a wrongko wood, and at its best the figure will rival any of the traditional woods.

Actually, a lot of people I know refer to wattles as acacias.

I've been around wood all my life, and when I was a kid I had the opportunity to see some truly exquisite cabinet timbers, both native Australian timbers, and exotics that were often in pieces that my dad had in for repair. In fact, I've still got a 1930's bespoke bedroom suite in Italian burl walnut, which has some of the best figure I've ever seen. I've been up close to the custom gunstock game, the custom knife game, and also to wrongko makers and hilt makers in Jawa. However, with all this experience, I don't consider myself at all competent to identify most timbers just from a picture, especially a picture on a computer screen. A few materials are probably pretty easy, but the vast bulk are not. Even with the wood in your hand it can often be very difficult to name what it is that you're holding.

1st May 2010, 08:46 AM	#2
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Hello Alan, I wasn't referring to the usually chatoyant effects you've shown examples of but rather to strongly contrasting woods as in the attached pic (courtesy of rsword). Will post some more links later when I have more time. The latter wood types seem to be actively selected for in N Malaya and are supposed to be the result of more pronounced dry seasons (possibly coupled with harsh growing conditions like on windy cliffs). Regards, Kai Attached Images

1st May 2010, 11:29 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Thanks Kai, I see what you're getting at now. The only theorising that I've come across that relates to colour variations like is that when you get a wide variation in colour in the sap wood what you are looking at is the result of infection or damage to the tree. However, the way in which a log is sawn also has a huge effect on the final material. There is very often a wide colour variation between the sap wood and the heart wood in a tree. The grain in the material of the example you have shown runs along the width of the wrongko top, from one end to the other. This means that it has been cut from a length of timber that has been sawn from the length of the trunk. A tree grows outwards from its core, so when you have a poor season, or a dry season, or a very good season, you can see this reflected in the growth rings that radiate from the core of the trunk. Looking at the example that you have posted, Kai, I believe that what we are looking at is the result of the way in which the log was cut. There are several techniques used for cutting a log that will produce different effects in the grain shown in the final plank. The most common technique used to produce fancy grain material is called quarter sawing, a technique that results in the growth rings falling between 80 and 90 degrees to the face of the plank.This is done by first cutting the log into quartersthrough it, and then sawing each of those quarters longitudinally, producing increasingly smaller planks as you move to the outside of the quarter. If we look at this example, we can see very pale wood at the extreme right, then moving left a darker wood, and at the far left a small touch of pale wood again. The pale wood would be sap wood, and the dark wood would be heart wood. The log that produced the material from which this wrongko was carved was sawn in a way to maximise the colour variation between heart wood and sap wood, and at the same time to maximise the chatoyant effect of the curly grain. The image of a log cross section might clarify how this can be done. Then again there are the other factors of genetics and disease. Attached Images

30th April 2010, 09:15 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	I think I'm missing your point here Kai. We can find figure such as fiddle back and curly grain of various types in many different trees from the artic circle to the tropics. One of the major types of curly figure is what we call compression grain, this is where you get figure as the result of constant prevailing winds, or it can occur adjacent to a large branch, where it will often finish up as feather crotch or one of the other crotch variants. Genetics can also play a role in providing fancy figure, and there also seems to be a strng argument for mineral uptake from the soil having an influence. What I am saying here is all opinion that I have picked up from being around cabinet makers, stock makers, and musical instrument makers for most of my life. It is if you like, "trade belief". To the best of my knowledge the academics who study this type of thing have not yet come up with any definite reasons for the formation of fancy figure in wood, about all they seem to be able to say is that there are many reasons for this occurrence of fancy grain, and those reasons are not yet fully understood.. Can you expand on your statement, especially the effect that a monsoonal climate can have in creating a curly grain?

1st May 2010, 03:36 PM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	IN the region there is also the nara tree that has a red core and a brown outer wood. Could other trees in the region also have similar characteristics?

1st May 2010, 11:07 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Other trees all over the world share these characteristics. All trees have heart wood (the core) and sap wood (the outer wood). Almost invariably these materials differ in colour. I've never seen it, but I have been told that the sap wood of black ebony is in fact white.

1st May 2010, 11:31 PM	#7
drdavid Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 372	Hi Alan, a very instructive line up. I wonder how many timbers the common name Akasia is given to in Indonesia. I think interesting too to think about what Akasia (botanical classification Acacia auriculiformis) is related to botanically. References regard it as the same species as one of the Australian wattles (which itself has at least 5 common names). The Tasmanian blackwood you showed is Acacia Melanoxylon, another of the Acacia family (of which there are 1200 worldwide). I think it would be extremely difficult to pick many of these species from a piece of wood alone. drd

2nd May 2010, 03:43 AM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Only the one, I think, David. Its a very recent timber, dating from probably only about the late 1970's. At that time it started to be planted all over Jawa to green the environment, then a few people tried the trunk base and root area of the tree for wrongkos, and found that it was most suitable for this use. Its not an expensive wood, but it has much to recommend it as a wrongko wood, and at its best the figure will rival any of the traditional woods. Actually, a lot of people I know refer to wattles as acacias. I've been around wood all my life, and when I was a kid I had the opportunity to see some truly exquisite cabinet timbers, both native Australian timbers, and exotics that were often in pieces that my dad had in for repair. In fact, I've still got a 1930's bespoke bedroom suite in Italian burl walnut, which has some of the best figure I've ever seen. I've been up close to the custom gunstock game, the custom knife game, and also to wrongko makers and hilt makers in Jawa. However, with all this experience, I don't consider myself at all competent to identify most timbers just from a picture, especially a picture on a computer screen. A few materials are probably pretty easy, but the vast bulk are not. Even with the wood in your hand it can often be very difficult to name what it is that you're holding.