Interesting big sized javanese keris

A. G. Maisey · 27th April 2010, 11:47 PM

I've been thinking about this discussion on kermuning.

It seems to me that the main reason we're going around in circles on this one is that there is a tendency for people to confuse wood grain and/or colour with variations in wood types.

The chatoyant, fiddle back grain that has been shown by some of us as an example of kemuning can occur in a variety of woods, and the grain itself, and colour, are not indicative of the type of wood we are looking at. To know the type of wood, you need a very great depth of knowledge, probably specialist training over many years, and to have the wood in your hand.

My profession is audit and risk management, but my family background is fine art cabinet making, and I have dabbled in wood work at times, for instance, back in my twenties I had a nice little hobby business going, making custom built rifle stocks.

There are a number of fancy grains that we use in wood work in Australia that are also identifiable as wood grains known in Jawa:-

Fiddle back = nginden
Feather crotch = simbar
Bird's eye = semburatan
Burl = gembol
------ and so on.

Here is a link to a site with a number of examples of fancy grains that are known and used in western cultures;

http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/person...cs/_figure.htm

select a term from the list on the left of the page, and then click on the link to the photo examples.

Most, if not all of the grains shown here are known in Jawa.

However, these grains can occur in a number of different timbers, so the grain by itself is not an identifier of the wood type, and colours of the same wood type can run through a range, so colour by itself is not an indication of the wood type.

With a great deal of knowledge and experience a person can take a piece of wood in hand and possibly name the wood type, if he has experience with that wood, but from photos all we have are colour and grain, so we tend to relate that colour and grain to what we have learnt from physical examples of material.

It is very difficult to be certain about a wood type from a photo, but we can be certain about a wood grain from a photo

A. G. Maisey · 28th April 2010, 04:25 AM

The following 20 or so images are examples of similar wood grains.

I cannot correctly name all the different types of wood that are shown here. I can name some with absolute certainty, I can guess at others, and there are some that I do not know.

I am inviting everybody to nominate the images which are images of kemuning.

A. G. Maisey · 28th April 2010, 04:28 AM

A few more.

A. G. Maisey · 28th April 2010, 04:30 AM

And a few more.

A. G. Maisey · 29th April 2010, 10:49 AM

The examples of wood that I posted yesterday have been viewed 110 times since they were posted.

It appears that none of these 110 views has been sufficient to permit any of the viewers to identify the examples of kemuning.

Here are the woods that I know with absolute certainty:-

akasia:-

6, 4, 3, 2, 11, 8, 16

pau marfin:-

13, 21

Tasmanian blackwood:-

22

#1 is probably akasia, but I am not certain.

the following numbers I am uncertain of; I can guess that some are kemuning, but I do not know with absolute certainty that this is the case:-

20, 10, 9, 7, 5, 18, 17, 15, 12, 19, 23 & 23.

Note:- I made an error in numbering, there are two examples identified as #23

Sajen · 29th April 2010, 10:34 PM

Yup, who want to be sure about the sort of wood after this discussion? You show us with conclusive arguments how difficult it is to destine the nature of a wood. On the other hand you also suspect that the shown wrongkos from Bugis and Peninsula are possible kemuning.
Who have read this thread will be in future more distrustful by descriptions from sellers which wood is used by a wrongko/sarung of a keris.

A. G. Maisey · 29th April 2010, 11:35 PM

Yes Sajen, that was the point of the exercise.

As we have commented time and time again:-

here, we are looking at images of objects, wood included, not the actual object

it is often very difficult to be too certain about anything.

I do believe some of the Bugis and Peninsula examples are kemuning, but I don't really know, because the kemuning I have seen and handled most of has been only as big as a jejeran, and nearly always stained. It is entirely possible that there are other local woods used in these Bugis and Peninsula examples that I do not know.

28th April 2010, 04:28 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	A few more. Attached Images

28th April 2010, 04:30 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	And a few more. Attached Images

27th April 2010, 11:47 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	I've been thinking about this discussion on kermuning. It seems to me that the main reason we're going around in circles on this one is that there is a tendency for people to confuse wood grain and/or colour with variations in wood types. The chatoyant, fiddle back grain that has been shown by some of us as an example of kemuning can occur in a variety of woods, and the grain itself, and colour, are not indicative of the type of wood we are looking at. To know the type of wood, you need a very great depth of knowledge, probably specialist training over many years, and to have the wood in your hand. My profession is audit and risk management, but my family background is fine art cabinet making, and I have dabbled in wood work at times, for instance, back in my twenties I had a nice little hobby business going, making custom built rifle stocks. There are a number of fancy grains that we use in wood work in Australia that are also identifiable as wood grains known in Jawa:- Fiddle back = nginden Feather crotch = simbar Bird's eye = semburatan Burl = gembol ------ and so on. Here is a link to a site with a number of examples of fancy grains that are known and used in western cultures; http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/person...cs/_figure.htm select a term from the list on the left of the page, and then click on the link to the photo examples. Most, if not all of the grains shown here are known in Jawa. However, these grains can occur in a number of different timbers, so the grain by itself is not an identifier of the wood type, and colours of the same wood type can run through a range, so colour by itself is not an indication of the wood type. With a great deal of knowledge and experience a person can take a piece of wood in hand and possibly name the wood type, if he has experience with that wood, but from photos all we have are colour and grain, so we tend to relate that colour and grain to what we have learnt from physical examples of material. It is very difficult to be certain about a wood type from a photo, but we can be certain about a wood grain from a photo Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 28th April 2010 at 12:32 AM.

28th April 2010, 04:25 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	The following 20 or so images are examples of similar wood grains. I cannot correctly name all the different types of wood that are shown here. I can name some with absolute certainty, I can guess at others, and there are some that I do not know. I am inviting everybody to nominate the images which are images of kemuning. Attached Images

29th April 2010, 10:49 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	The examples of wood that I posted yesterday have been viewed 110 times since they were posted. It appears that none of these 110 views has been sufficient to permit any of the viewers to identify the examples of kemuning. Here are the woods that I know with absolute certainty:- akasia:- 6, 4, 3, 2, 11, 8, 16 pau marfin:- 13, 21 Tasmanian blackwood:- 22 #1 is probably akasia, but I am not certain. the following numbers I am uncertain of; I can guess that some are kemuning, but I do not know with absolute certainty that this is the case:- 20, 10, 9, 7, 5, 18, 17, 15, 12, 19, 23 & 23. Note:- I made an error in numbering, there are two examples identified as #23

29th April 2010, 10:34 PM	#6
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,165	Yup, who want to be sure about the sort of wood after this discussion? You show us with conclusive arguments how difficult it is to destine the nature of a wood. On the other hand you also suspect that the shown wrongkos from Bugis and Peninsula are possible kemuning. Who have read this thread will be in future more distrustful by descriptions from sellers which wood is used by a wrongko/sarung of a keris.

29th April 2010, 11:35 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Yes Sajen, that was the point of the exercise. As we have commented time and time again:- here, we are looking at images of objects, wood included, not the actual object it is often very difficult to be too certain about anything. I do believe some of the Bugis and Peninsula examples are kemuning, but I don't really know, because the kemuning I have seen and handled most of has been only as big as a jejeran, and nearly always stained. It is entirely possible that there are other local woods used in these Bugis and Peninsula examples that I do not know.