Keris and Rembrandt

kronckew · 16th April 2010, 12:30 PM

this is not a keris, it is an image of a keris

p.s. - this is not a kris either. this is an image of a kris.

of course, in classical thaumaturgy the image IS the object, it's the sympathetic magical law of similarity.....

A. G. Maisey · 17th April 2010, 01:56 PM

Kronckew in your most recent post you have made the most beautiful and most accurate statement I think I have ever seen in this discussion group:-

this is not a keris, it is an image of a keris

I thank you most sincerely for reminding us that when we look at an image on a computer screen, no matter how expertly that image has been prepared, it is still not the real thing, it is only something that acts upon our mind to conjure our own understanding of the real thing.

kronckew · 17th April 2010, 08:14 PM

a.g., you have most eloquently put into words the intent of my posts. words are also images.

...and sometimes provoke more thought than a graphic ever could. sometimes a word is worth a thousand pictures as it allows your imagination to fill in the gaps...

i remember reading 'the talisman' in my youth, and there was, i believe, a chapter where king richard (the lionheart) meets saladin (Salah-ed-Din Yusef ibn Ayub), richard cuts an iron bar in half with his sword to impress him, and saladin responds by cutting a silk scarf in half by just floating it down onto the stationary edge.

how many pictures of that sword are in our minds now....

and the image in oil paint of the essential keris in sampson's eye will also be engraved somewhere in our hearts evermore...

drdavid · 18th April 2010, 02:34 AM

Please excuse my whimsy but this thread has taken me to one of my favourite images by Yoshitoshi

' a finger points at the moon but the finger is not itself the moon'
(Gesshu 17th C)

drd

kronckew · 18th April 2010, 06:19 AM

ah, great minds think alike.

Gustav · 29th April 2010, 01:53 PM

In his Krisdisk Jensen gives an interpretation about a connection between subject of Samson and keris.

Rembrandt van Rijn (1606-1669) has in two
paintings pictured a kris. The first painting
represents “The Capture of Samson” (Judges 16:19)
and is painted in 1629. The picture shows Samson
sleeping with his head in the lap of Delilah. She is
pointing at his hair to tell the enemy entering the
room that his strength is sitting in his hair. Samson
wears a kris with a Yaksha-/Raksasa hilt type 1 and a red painted old Ladrang type of sheath.
The Dutch had in 1596 entered the Indonesian area and began to bring krisses of this type home to Holland.
The Europeans found them very exotic and Rembrandt, who collected oriental weapons, has presumably
purchased one.
The other painting illustrates “The Capture and Blinding of Samson” and is painted in 1636. At the painting a
soldier is blinding Samson with a kris with a long, strong and waved blade. It is most possible the same kris
as the one pictured in the first picture.
I do not think that it is accidental that Rembrandt twice connected the kris with the capture of Samson. It is
most probable connected with the fact that the Europeans thought the kris was a demonic weapon. Many
sources relate that the blade is poisonous (perhaps because of the arsenic that was used to blue the blade).
It was a view harboured by the snake symbolism of the blade (the blade symbolizes a Naga, snake, the ruler
of the underworld). This idea was made clear by the waved snake-like blade, which most of the krisses the
Europeans brought home to Europe had and which Rembrandt´s kris had as well. Now the snake is
according to the Jewish and Christian tradition connected with Satan as the tempter and seducer, a
connection which is further accentuated by the demonic Yaksha-/Raksasa hilt of the kris. Because of that it is
probable that Rembrandt has equipped Samson with a such a kris. It symbolizes that Samson wears a
seductive and treacherous weapon in his belt - a weapons which turns against himself and literally blinds
him, like he was blind to the seductive treason of Delilah.

Laowang · 30th April 2010, 12:13 AM

From Janson, History of Art (Abrams, 1986), regarding the Blinding of Samson:

"Rembrandt had developed a full-blown High Baroque style. He here visualizes the Old Testament as a world of oriental splendor and violence, cruel yet seductive... Rembrandt was at this time an avid collector of Near Eastern (sic) paraphernalia, which serve as props in these pictures."

I would hesitate from imputing too much symbolism to the choice of the keris, outside of its contribution to 'oriental' splendor. The interpretation in the KrisDisk is uncharacteristic of Rembrandt and his social milieu.

At this time, Holland was newly independent and prosperous, and art was a commodity hotly collected by wealthy merchants. Paintings were commodities produced for the market; the overall atmosphere of a piece like this would have contributed to its value as such. Still lifes from the period often have animals, flowers, or fruit from outside of Europe. Unlike paintings of Old Testament subjects from earlier periods in European art history, paintings in this period were being produced for wealthy secular clients, not the church.

Also, if the kris were viewed as a satanic emblem, it is unlikely Rembrandt would have held one in his self-portrait as an Oriental potentate.

16th April 2010, 12:30 PM	#1
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,224	this is not a keris, it is an image of a keris p.s. - this is not a kris either. this is an image of a kris. of course, in classical thaumaturgy the image IS the object, it's the sympathetic magical law of similarity..... Last edited by kronckew; 16th April 2010 at 12:50 PM.

17th April 2010, 08:14 PM	#3
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,224	a.g., you have most eloquently put into words the intent of my posts. words are also images. ...and sometimes provoke more thought than a graphic ever could. sometimes a word is worth a thousand pictures as it allows your imagination to fill in the gaps... i remember reading 'the talisman' in my youth, and there was, i believe, a chapter where king richard (the lionheart) meets saladin (Salah-ed-Din Yusef ibn Ayub), richard cuts an iron bar in half with his sword to impress him, and saladin responds by cutting a silk scarf in half by just floating it down onto the stationary edge. how many pictures of that sword are in our minds now.... and the image in oil paint of the essential keris in sampson's eye will also be engraved somewhere in our hearts evermore... Last edited by kronckew; 17th April 2010 at 08:30 PM.

18th April 2010, 02:34 AM	#4
drdavid Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 372	Please excuse my whimsy but this thread has taken me to one of my favourite images by Yoshitoshi ' a finger points at the moon but the finger is not itself the moon' (Gesshu 17th C) drd Attached Images

18th April 2010, 06:19 AM	#5
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,224	ah, great minds think alike. Last edited by kronckew; 18th April 2010 at 06:34 AM.

17th April 2010, 01:56 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Kronckew in your most recent post you have made the most beautiful and most accurate statement I think I have ever seen in this discussion group:- this is not a keris, it is an image of a keris I thank you most sincerely for reminding us that when we look at an image on a computer screen, no matter how expertly that image has been prepared, it is still not the real thing, it is only something that acts upon our mind to conjure our own understanding of the real thing.

29th April 2010, 01:53 PM	#6
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,280	In his Krisdisk Jensen gives an interpretation about a connection between subject of Samson and keris. Rembrandt van Rijn (1606-1669) has in two paintings pictured a kris. The first painting represents “The Capture of Samson” (Judges 16:19) and is painted in 1629. The picture shows Samson sleeping with his head in the lap of Delilah. She is pointing at his hair to tell the enemy entering the room that his strength is sitting in his hair. Samson wears a kris with a Yaksha-/Raksasa hilt type 1 and a red painted old Ladrang type of sheath. The Dutch had in 1596 entered the Indonesian area and began to bring krisses of this type home to Holland. The Europeans found them very exotic and Rembrandt, who collected oriental weapons, has presumably purchased one. The other painting illustrates “The Capture and Blinding of Samson” and is painted in 1636. At the painting a soldier is blinding Samson with a kris with a long, strong and waved blade. It is most possible the same kris as the one pictured in the first picture. I do not think that it is accidental that Rembrandt twice connected the kris with the capture of Samson. It is most probable connected with the fact that the Europeans thought the kris was a demonic weapon. Many sources relate that the blade is poisonous (perhaps because of the arsenic that was used to blue the blade). It was a view harboured by the snake symbolism of the blade (the blade symbolizes a Naga, snake, the ruler of the underworld). This idea was made clear by the waved snake-like blade, which most of the krisses the Europeans brought home to Europe had and which Rembrandt´s kris had as well. Now the snake is according to the Jewish and Christian tradition connected with Satan as the tempter and seducer, a connection which is further accentuated by the demonic Yaksha-/Raksasa hilt of the kris. Because of that it is probable that Rembrandt has equipped Samson with a such a kris. It symbolizes that Samson wears a seductive and treacherous weapon in his belt - a weapons which turns against himself and literally blinds him, like he was blind to the seductive treason of Delilah.

30th April 2010, 12:13 AM	#7
Laowang Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: 40˚00' N, 83˚00' W Posts: 52	From Janson, History of Art (Abrams, 1986), regarding the Blinding of Samson: "Rembrandt had developed a full-blown High Baroque style. He here visualizes the Old Testament as a world of oriental splendor and violence, cruel yet seductive... Rembrandt was at this time an avid collector of Near Eastern (sic) paraphernalia, which serve as props in these pictures." I would hesitate from imputing too much symbolism to the choice of the keris, outside of its contribution to 'oriental' splendor. The interpretation in the KrisDisk is uncharacteristic of Rembrandt and his social milieu. At this time, Holland was newly independent and prosperous, and art was a commodity hotly collected by wealthy merchants. Paintings were commodities produced for the market; the overall atmosphere of a piece like this would have contributed to its value as such. Still lifes from the period often have animals, flowers, or fruit from outside of Europe. Unlike paintings of Old Testament subjects from earlier periods in European art history, paintings in this period were being produced for wealthy secular clients, not the church. Also, if the kris were viewed as a satanic emblem, it is unlikely Rembrandt would have held one in his self-portrait as an Oriental potentate.