Keris and Rembrandt

ganjawulung · 15th April 2010, 06:04 PM

Was the sheath Banten "sandang walikat"? If yes, then Cirebonese "buta hilt" would match with Bantenese walikat.... Just guessing. For comparison, (picture) is Bantenese warangka but not sandang walikat. Banten warangka, could seem as if symetrical, although the blade inside doesn't need to be symetrical.

Just one cent opinion...

GANJAWULUNG

Gustav · 15th April 2010, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

Was the sheath Banten "sandang walikat"? If yes, then Cirebonese "buta hilt" would match with Bantenese walikat.... Just guessing. For comparison, (picture) is Bantenese warangka but not sandang walikat. Banten warangka, could seem as if symetrical, although the blade inside doesn't need to be symetrical.

Just one cent opinion...

GANJAWULUNG

The sheath on the picture is not sandang walikat (nobody has said that), but an old (probably broken) ladrang form, seen also in old european collections. It is very close to the Banten wrongko you posted, all preserved examples are Gandar Iras.

asomotif · 15th April 2010, 07:54 PM

Here is a picture of his "Kunstcaemer"

At this moment I have no Idea if the items on display are genuinely from rembrandts time...

David · 15th April 2010, 08:49 PM

Hmmm....well i do see a keris on the wall in the middle next to a bust. It would be cool if this stuff actually was his personal affects.

Gustav · 15th April 2010, 09:22 PM

Two days before Rembrandt's death he was visited by genealogist Pieter van Brederode, who has made a record of antiquities and curiosa in his collection. So, despite his very bad financial situation, Rembrandt should have possessed (after many auctions he was forced to make) some objects till death.

There surely will be some information in museum about his estate. The diaries of Pieter van Brederode are also published, 2006. But I think, it's nearly impossible there would be some original objects from Rembrandt's household or collections.

A. G. Maisey · 15th April 2010, 11:59 PM

This is alike to failing to see a forest because the trees got in the way.

I can see that keris clearly and in detail now.

Last night I looked again and again and focussed intently on the hand.

I did not see that the mailed hand was grasping the blade, I sub-consciously had that hand gripping the hilt.

Helps to look at things when you haven't just finished 12 hours in front of a computer screen.

ganjawulung · 16th April 2010, 02:59 AM

Examining the "Rembrandt's Keris" in his painting of "The Blinding Samson" (1636), of course is not like examining a Banten keris in Jensen's Krisdisk -- for instance. Or like watching this "blade-gripping a seven luks Carubuk" like this too (picture). So, IMHO, it is not important -- whether Rembrandt was painting a Carubuk or Banten keris in his "Blinding Samson", or a Kidang Soka in Maduran walikat sheath.

This was "Rembrandt's Keris", of course. No matter what dapur it was. It was his expression at a certain mood in a certain time in the past. Why gripping the keris not in the keris' hilt, this was of course his liberty in expressing certain idea. For me, it is more interesting to look back at the biography of this one greatest painter in Europe.

Rembrandt Harmenszoon van Rijn (you may browse anywhere) -- (July 16, 1606 until October 4, 1669) was living in the period of the golden era of the famous multi-national corporation VOC (Vereenigde Nederlandsche g'octroyeerde Oost-Indische Compagnie). No wonder, if he owned some "Indonesian thing" in his life. Many building, and even the city of Batavia (Jakarta now) was built during this VOC period. (The National Museum of Jakarta still exists, until now).

In the journey of his life in painting -- The Blinding Samson was expressed in his "Amsterdam Period" (1632-1636) where he used more biblical and mythological theme in his paintings.. But in dramatical way.

So, not important whether this "keris like object" was a Carubuk, Kidang Soka or whatever dhapur. It was "Rembrandt's keris".... It is a painting. Not a photograph.

GANJAWULUNG

David · 16th April 2010, 04:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I did not see that the mailed hand was grasping the blade, I sub-consciously had that hand gripping the hilt.

Makes perfect sense to me Alan. Because your mind wasn't connecting to the fact that the hand is holding the blade in a completely unpractical manner you just weren't seeing it correctly.
Ganja, yes, in many ways this is "Rembrandt's Keris", but it is most certainly modeled after a keris he actually held in his possession. As such it is as much a "real" item that can be identified as is a photograph, that is a 2 dimensional depictions of an actual 3 dimensional object.
Rick, i think perhaps Rembrandt chose to use various exotic arms simply because they were exotic. We might be thinking too deeply if we are searching for a allegory here.

15th April 2010, 06:04 PM	#1
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	BANTEN sheath? Was the sheath Banten "sandang walikat"? If yes, then Cirebonese "buta hilt" would match with Bantenese walikat.... Just guessing. For comparison, (picture) is Bantenese warangka but not sandang walikat. Banten warangka, could seem as if symetrical, although the blade inside doesn't need to be symetrical. Just one cent opinion... GANJAWULUNG Attached Images

15th April 2010, 07:54 PM	#3
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,235	Here is a picture of his "Kunstcaemer" At this moment I have no Idea if the items on display are genuinely from rembrandts time... Attached Images

15th April 2010, 09:22 PM	#5
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,280	Two days before Rembrandt's death he was visited by genealogist Pieter van Brederode, who has made a record of antiquities and curiosa in his collection. So, despite his very bad financial situation, Rembrandt should have possessed (after many auctions he was forced to make) some objects till death. There surely will be some information in museum about his estate. The diaries of Pieter van Brederode are also published, 2006. But I think, it's nearly impossible there would be some original objects from Rembrandt's household or collections. Last edited by Gustav; 15th April 2010 at 11:03 PM.

16th April 2010, 02:59 AM	#7
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	Examining the "Rembrandt's Keris" in his painting of "The Blinding Samson" (1636), of course is not like examining a Banten keris in Jensen's Krisdisk -- for instance. Or like watching this "blade-gripping a seven luks Carubuk" like this too (picture). So, IMHO, it is not important -- whether Rembrandt was painting a Carubuk or Banten keris in his "Blinding Samson", or a Kidang Soka in Maduran walikat sheath. This was "Rembrandt's Keris", of course. No matter what dapur it was. It was his expression at a certain mood in a certain time in the past. Why gripping the keris not in the keris' hilt, this was of course his liberty in expressing certain idea. For me, it is more interesting to look back at the biography of this one greatest painter in Europe. Rembrandt Harmenszoon van Rijn (you may browse anywhere) -- (July 16, 1606 until October 4, 1669) was living in the period of the golden era of the famous multi-national corporation VOC (Vereenigde Nederlandsche g'octroyeerde Oost-Indische Compagnie). No wonder, if he owned some "Indonesian thing" in his life. Many building, and even the city of Batavia (Jakarta now) was built during this VOC period. (The National Museum of Jakarta still exists, until now). In the journey of his life in painting -- The Blinding Samson was expressed in his "Amsterdam Period" (1632-1636) where he used more biblical and mythological theme in his paintings.. But in dramatical way. So, not important whether this "keris like object" was a Carubuk, Kidang Soka or whatever dhapur. It was "Rembrandt's keris".... It is a painting. Not a photograph. GANJAWULUNG Attached Images

15th April 2010, 08:49 PM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	Hmmm....well i do see a keris on the wall in the middle next to a bust. It would be cool if this stuff actually was his personal affects.

15th April 2010, 11:59 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	This is alike to failing to see a forest because the trees got in the way. I can see that keris clearly and in detail now. Last night I looked again and again and focussed intently on the hand. I did not see that the mailed hand was grasping the blade, I sub-consciously had that hand gripping the hilt. Helps to look at things when you haven't just finished 12 hours in front of a computer screen.