Dapur Carita?

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Greybeard

Thank you, Jean. I will have a look this evening after coming home from work.

Heinz

Hello Heinz,

my way to affect a dapur is that I write down what the blade have and then look to the books I have.

Regards,

Detlef

[Greybeard]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Heinz,

my way to affect a dapur is that I write down what the blade have and then look to the books I have.

Regards,

Detlef

Hello Detlef,

My method of determining a given dapur is probably very similar to yours: I compare the ricikan of my keris with the ricikan in the books ...

I think one of the problems of determining the dapur of older keris consists of their sometimes worn down ricikan.

I have four keris dapur Sabuk Inten, attributed to four different tangguh (Old Madura, Demak, Mataram Senopaten, and Yogyakarta), and the ricikan of each keris became more or less indistinct or have been completely gone. Thus it can be difficult to distinguish very similar dapur (e.g. Sengkelat vs. Parungsari) from each other.

Regards,

Heinz

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Greybeard

Hello Detlef,

My method of determining a given dapur is probably very similar to yours: I compare the ricikan of my keris with the ricikan in the books ...

I think one of the problems of determining the dapur of older keris consists of their sometimes worn down ricikan.

I have four keris dapur Sabuk Inten, attributed to four different tangguh (Old Madura, Demak, Mataram Senopaten, and Yogyakarta), and the ricikan of each keris became more or less indistinct or have been completely gone. Thus it can be difficult to distinguish very similar dapur (e.g. Sengkelat vs. Parungsari) from each other.

Regards,

Heinz

Hello Heinz,

yes, like you see (and special I see) it's indeed very difficult to define the correct dapur. And it's great to have this forum to learn and so knowledge members like Alan.

Regards,

Detlef

[Greybeard]

Hello Detlef,

I completely agree with you!

Regards,

Heinz

[ganjawulung]

Dear Heinz, Detlef,
One of the easiest way to differ 11 luks sabuk inten and carita is by examining the "lambe gajah". Carita must have two "lambe gajah", and Sabuk Inten must have only one "lambe gajah"... Of course, you may examining other details too.

It happens too, in examining the difference between dhapurs 13 luks of Parung Sari and Sengkelat. They have the same ricikans, except on "lambe gajah". Parung sari, definitely has two lambe gajah, while Sengkelat only one lambe gajah...

These two blades below, supposed to be Carita Keprabon (royal Carita, the one with ron dha nunut) and the other one, Carita Prasaja (simple Carita). You may see the two lambe gajah too..

Is it important, to know keris dhapur names? (More than 70 names of keris dhapurs). Yes, of course. This is one of what you may say as "intangible heritage" of our keris culture in Java, beside pamor (more than 120 kinds of pamor) and tangguh -- as mentioned too by the UNESCO in 2005...
The problem is, almost no one who could be regarded as "the most knowledgeable" in such knowledge. (In Kraton Solo now, at least such person as Pak Ngabei Sukat -- the Pengageng Reksa Pusaka -- the one who take care of the kraton pusakas -- is one of them. In Kraton Yogyakarta? Then, Mr Boedhy Adhitya knows better than me who is in charge of Pengageng Reksa Pusaka there...)

GANJAWULUNG

[ganjawulung]

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

...(In Kraton Solo now, at least such person as Pak Ngabei Sukat -- the Pengageng Reksa Pusaka -- the one who take care of the kraton pusakas -- is one of them...

The gentleman I meant is Raden Ngabei Sukatno Purwosusastro...

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes Pak Ganja, you are without any doubt absolutely correct:- nobody can be acknowledged as infallible in matters of dhapur.

Why is it so?

The names of the various dhapurs are rooted in the past.

What has been driven home to me again, and again, and again over the years by a number of people, is that keris art is Karaton art, thus only a Karaton has the right and the obligation to bestow a name for a dhapur, or a pamor, upon a keris. Similarly, only a Karaton can determine if a keris is legitimate in its interpretations, or not.

It follows that within the area where a Karaton is paramount, only those keris which fall within the guidelines accepted by that Karaton can be accepted as legitimate representations of the Karaton's art.

However, where we move to an area where a different Karaton is paramount, the parameters may change.

Then, if we move into an area where there is no active influence of any karaton, how do we determine what is correct and what is not correct?

For this reason, I believe that if ever we wish to involve ourselves in this most extreme of all Name Games, which is the naming of the dhapur and pamor of a keris, we must at all times quote the pakem or reference that we are using as our guide.

To simply give an opinion is less than useless, no matter who gives that opinion, because no person now living can over-rule the parameters that have been previously set by a Ruler, except the current Ruler, and if the source of the opinion is not based in a karaton's guidelines, then it is a very arrogant person indeed who is prepared to give an opinion without either quoting his reference, or providing an argument to support the opinion.

Now, this is not to say, that a knowledgeable individual, or a group of individuals , are prohibited from accepting some keris form that varies from the parameters set by a karaton, however, if we accept the opinion of that individual, or group of individuals, equally we must quote our source if we determine to follow that opinion.

An unsupported opinion, or an uninformed opinion, is in matters of dhapur and pamor, something that should be looked at very critically.

Why?

Because in these matters everything is already graven in stone.

However, let us pursue this line of thought just a little further.

Pak Ganja has written:-

"---Is it important, to know keris dhapur names? (More than 70 names of keris dhapurs). Yes, of course.---"

But why is it important?

Why exactly do we need to know these names?

It may facilitate discussion between people who hold equal levels of knowledge, but does this name of pamor, or dhapur, or any other name attached to the description of a keris, further our knowledge in even the slightest degree in respect of the nature of the keris?

It can be enormously impressive for somebody to pick up a blade, glance at it for a few moments, and then pronounce the dhapur, pamor, tangguh, and name of the maker. Impressive!!!

But what does this demonstrate except that that person has a lot of experience and a very good memory?

Remember Mary Poppins?

She had a good memory.

She could remember a wonderful word:-

Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious

Impressive!!!

But does that word have any meaning?

And if it does , did our little Mary know it?

Or was it just a very impressive word that sounded extremely impressive to people who equally knew as little of its meaning as did sweet Mary?

A word that lacks meaning is no more more than a sound.

The purpose of words is to transfer a thought that is in one mind into other minds. If a word can only be used to convey a picture of something, its meaning is limited to the picture it conveys, it tells nothing of the nature of the object that it has conjured in the mind of the hearer.

The keris is an icon that encapsulates the soul of a people, and regretably that soul has at the present moment in time suffered so much loss , addition and alteration that it is probable we shall never understand its original nature.

All we are left with is a shadow.

[Greybeard]

[QUOTE=ganjawulung]Dear Heinz, Detlef,
One of the easiest way to differ 11 luks sabuk inten and carita is by examining the "lambe gajah". Carita must have two "lambe gajah", and Sabuk Inten must have only one "lambe gajah"... Of course, you may examining other details too.


Hello Ganjawulung,

Thank you for the valuable hint. One of my Keris dapur Sabuk Inten -- the oldest one, attributed to tangguh Old Madura -- also shows as an optional feature jenggot (and worn down ron dha nunut), something that is IMO not too often seen with this dapur.

Regards,

Heinz

[Sajen]

Hello Pak Ganjawulung,

terima kasih for the further informations, special about the dapur Senkelat/Parung Sari.

BTW, is the dapur Sabuk Inten a "special" or rare dapur or have it a special background?

Regards,

Detlef