Baskethilt

Jeff D · 31st May 2005, 11:39 PM

Thanks engar.

Hi Rivkin, it is not the English atribute that bothers me it is the date. The blade is undoubtedly German and the hilt is English. 1590 seems way to early. But who am I to contradict Oakeshott!

Hi Jim, As we have discussed this before, these moon, sun etc. motifs seem to occur in a fairly narrow time period starting in the later 18th century. I am still looking for a datable sword with this motif that is earlier than 1750. I suspect Oakeshott dated this by attributing the markings to Peter Munich. I don't know if he is correct. This is also why I left out the symbols on my original posting as my sword is quite datable by the other features as you expertly displayed. Thanks!

Does anyone have photo's of a pre 1750 sword with these symbols, or any photo's of known Peter Munich swords?

Thanks All.
Jeff

wolviex · 1st June 2005, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff D

Does anyone have photo's of a pre 1750 sword with these symbols, or any photo's of known Peter Munich swords?

Unfortunatelly it probably won't help you much, but there is one of Munich's swords from C. Blair, European and American Arms, no. 145 with description:

"Pillow-Sword" of Federick III of Denmark and Norway (1648-1670) (...). Blade signed "Peter Munich me fecit Solinge". Danish, c. 1650, Rosenborg, Copenhagen.

Jeff D · 2nd June 2005, 03:19 PM

Thanks Mark and Wolviex,

I think the continued use of the sun moon symbols is what we all have been accepting. But unlike Andrea Ferrera, I can't find examples that are definitely pre 1750. For instance we know of Ferrera, running wolf, orb and cross, as well as Sun moon signs are popular on Scottish swords. Yet a datable collection such as the blades from the battle of Culloden has examples of all except the sun and moon. I am sure there are some examples of the pre 1750 sun and moons out there but I am convinced the vast majority date to the later 18th century with a few mistakenly attributed to Peter Munich. I would love to see a photo of your Dutch hanger!

All the Best
Jeff

M ELEY · 3rd June 2005, 04:10 PM

I'd love to post,Jeff, but I don't have a digital camera, nor am I very computer-savvy. To top things off, I'm expremely busy and my computer is acting up- time to take it back in to the shop. I'm going out of town for a week, but when I get back, perhaps I'll try and get help posting a pic.

Jim McDougall · 5th June 2005, 10:56 PM

Hi Jeff,
I have been hoping that someone out there might find a reference or example of pre-1750 provenance blade with these facially enhanced crescent moon and sun. Meanwhile I have been looking more into the use of these images on blades, which are clearly associated with the allegorically and talismanically symbolized figures that became popular through cabbalistic and occult literature. Without going into the complexities of such esoterica, it seems very apparant that the style of these inscribed images are very similar to the 18th century artwork seen on tarot cards and similar occult material.

As discussed, the blade on your sword seems clearly of mid to third quarter eighteenth century as well as clearly a Solingen product, the hilt being Scottish and also of that period. In reviewing material on blades with such 'cabbalistic' or occult images it does seem that they typically do occur primarily on c.1750 blades, especially on 'hunting' swords. In previous discussions discussing these markings on blades we have noted references to many such swords intended for use by the gentry as for hunt as well as 'riding' swords for protection while travelling. In "Schools and Masters of Fence" (Egerton Castle, 1885, p.42), it is noted that magical signs often appeared on hunting swords produced in Germany and the etching of hunting scenes often accompanied such motif. Curiously, the author notes that "...in the second half of the eighteenth century, decoration on the blades was confined to a band of interlaced strapwork with some sprays of foliage or martial trophies".

This seems to suggest that use of such magical motif actually declined, rather than acceded after 1750, at least on hunting weapons. This would imply that popularity of such 'magical' motif had waned by then at least in hunting swords intended for German use.....however it seems established that cessation of such trends would not necessarily impact the trade blade sector (consider the Solingen blades thus marked found on 19th century kaskaras).

While this information does not really address the search for pre-1750 use of these symbols, it does seem interesting regarding the established use of them. We know that the crescent moon image was widely used in antiquity and is also noted used as a stylized stamp or marking by Spanish smiths for one example (Juan Martinez of Toledo, mid 16th c. , Wagner, p.106). As we have noted, Spain was a main source for Solingen prototypes and much of the occult esoterica that entered Europe as well. We still need to see actual examples of the faced crescent moon on earlier blades as we have discussed, but the artistic style of the example on your blade seems clearly mid-18th c. as we have agreed.

I hope others might come in on this and give us more on such examples and especially on Peter Munich. As always, I wonder more on this identity, and exactly where and what period he actually worked. The Oakeshott attribution on the 18th century English baskethilt seems puzzling as well, with a blade seemingly comparable in date to yours and I agree with your suggestion of the Wagner reference as plausibly the root of the Munich attribution.

All the best ,
Jim

Jeff D · 6th June 2005, 12:29 AM

Hi Jim,

Thank you for sharing your excellent research. Since we originally discussed this I have constantly been looking for these stars and moons. They are very prominent on later 18th century English military weapons with German blades. 1788's (top) and 1796's (second from top). I have pasted a few of the examples I have found. I suspect Castle's observations are regarding civilian weapons.
If I find any pre 1750's with the etched symbols this will be the first place I will paste them.

Thanks again Jim!
Jeff

Jim McDougall · 6th June 2005, 04:29 AM

Hi Jeff,
Outstanding examples!!! Thanks very much for posting them!
We'll keep looking OK? There must be examples out there of blades that may be early 18th century with such markings (still curious on Wagners illustrations of Munich examples with his very early period of activity).
Also have yet to see actual examples of the Spanish blades mentioned.
All the best,
Jim

31st May 2005, 11:39 PM	#1
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Thanks engar. Hi Rivkin, it is not the English atribute that bothers me it is the date. The blade is undoubtedly German and the hilt is English. 1590 seems way to early. But who am I to contradict Oakeshott! Hi Jim, As we have discussed this before, these moon, sun etc. motifs seem to occur in a fairly narrow time period starting in the later 18th century. I am still looking for a datable sword with this motif that is earlier than 1750. I suspect Oakeshott dated this by attributing the markings to Peter Munich. I don't know if he is correct. This is also why I left out the symbols on my original posting as my sword is quite datable by the other features as you expertly displayed. Thanks! Does anyone have photo's of a pre 1750 sword with these symbols, or any photo's of known Peter Munich swords? Thanks All. Jeff Attached Images

5th June 2005, 10:56 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Hi Jeff, I have been hoping that someone out there might find a reference or example of pre-1750 provenance blade with these facially enhanced crescent moon and sun. Meanwhile I have been looking more into the use of these images on blades, which are clearly associated with the allegorically and talismanically symbolized figures that became popular through cabbalistic and occult literature. Without going into the complexities of such esoterica, it seems very apparant that the style of these inscribed images are very similar to the 18th century artwork seen on tarot cards and similar occult material. As discussed, the blade on your sword seems clearly of mid to third quarter eighteenth century as well as clearly a Solingen product, the hilt being Scottish and also of that period. In reviewing material on blades with such 'cabbalistic' or occult images it does seem that they typically do occur primarily on c.1750 blades, especially on 'hunting' swords. In previous discussions discussing these markings on blades we have noted references to many such swords intended for use by the gentry as for hunt as well as 'riding' swords for protection while travelling. In "Schools and Masters of Fence" (Egerton Castle, 1885, p.42), it is noted that magical signs often appeared on hunting swords produced in Germany and the etching of hunting scenes often accompanied such motif. Curiously, the author notes that "...in the second half of the eighteenth century, decoration on the blades was confined to a band of interlaced strapwork with some sprays of foliage or martial trophies". This seems to suggest that use of such magical motif actually declined, rather than acceded after 1750, at least on hunting weapons. This would imply that popularity of such 'magical' motif had waned by then at least in hunting swords intended for German use.....however it seems established that cessation of such trends would not necessarily impact the trade blade sector (consider the Solingen blades thus marked found on 19th century kaskaras). While this information does not really address the search for pre-1750 use of these symbols, it does seem interesting regarding the established use of them. We know that the crescent moon image was widely used in antiquity and is also noted used as a stylized stamp or marking by Spanish smiths for one example (Juan Martinez of Toledo, mid 16th c. , Wagner, p.106). As we have noted, Spain was a main source for Solingen prototypes and much of the occult esoterica that entered Europe as well. We still need to see actual examples of the faced crescent moon on earlier blades as we have discussed, but the artistic style of the example on your blade seems clearly mid-18th c. as we have agreed. I hope others might come in on this and give us more on such examples and especially on Peter Munich. As always, I wonder more on this identity, and exactly where and what period he actually worked. The Oakeshott attribution on the 18th century English baskethilt seems puzzling as well, with a blade seemingly comparable in date to yours and I agree with your suggestion of the Wagner reference as plausibly the root of the Munich attribution. All the best , Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 5th June 2005 at 11:12 PM.

6th June 2005, 12:29 AM	#6
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Hi Jim, Thank you for sharing your excellent research. Since we originally discussed this I have constantly been looking for these stars and moons. They are very prominent on later 18th century English military weapons with German blades. 1788's (top) and 1796's (second from top). I have pasted a few of the examples I have found. I suspect Castle's observations are regarding civilian weapons. If I find any pre 1750's with the etched symbols this will be the first place I will paste them. Thanks again Jim! Jeff Attached Images

2nd June 2005, 03:19 PM	#3
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Thanks Mark and Wolviex, I think the continued use of the sun moon symbols is what we all have been accepting. But unlike Andrea Ferrera, I can't find examples that are definitely pre 1750. For instance we know of Ferrera, running wolf, orb and cross, as well as Sun moon signs are popular on Scottish swords. Yet a datable collection such as the blades from the battle of Culloden has examples of all except the sun and moon. I am sure there are some examples of the pre 1750 sun and moons out there but I am convinced the vast majority date to the later 18th century with a few mistakenly attributed to Peter Munich. I would love to see a photo of your Dutch hanger! All the Best Jeff

3rd June 2005, 04:10 PM	#4
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	I'd love to post,Jeff, but I don't have a digital camera, nor am I very computer-savvy. To top things off, I'm expremely busy and my computer is acting up- time to take it back in to the shop. I'm going out of town for a week, but when I get back, perhaps I'll try and get help posting a pic.

6th June 2005, 04:29 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Hi Jeff, Outstanding examples!!! Thanks very much for posting them! We'll keep looking OK? There must be examples out there of blades that may be early 18th century with such markings (still curious on Wagners illustrations of Munich examples with his very early period of activity). Also have yet to see actual examples of the Spanish blades mentioned. All the best, Jim