Sumatra Keris tourist or not?

Henk · 11th April 2010, 10:40 PM

David,

I almost should say that this is the problem of this international forum and i hesitate to react on these kerisses. Actually i regret my reaction and opinion.

Telling me looking in the wrong boxes on flee markets and you forget the auction houses here in Holland and looking at the pictures you are showing me, i understand that i cann't make clear to you what i mean. Probably you will never understand it, because you're not Dutch.
I'm afraid only a Dutch can understand what i mean. I wished the Dutch soldiers brought keris back home of that quality. Almost every Dutch family who had a relative serving in The East, was surprised with a soldier keris of the quality i mentioned like the two shown in this thread. Most of these keris ended in the attic or shed or behind a cupboard. Cleaning up those places because grandpa or grandma passed away was also the moment to get rid of that thing and try to get some money for it. At a certain moment these keris popped up in every place you can imagine.

This is my last post on this subject. it cost me to much time and energy.

A. G. Maisey · 12th April 2010, 12:39 AM

Henk, I understand exactly what you mean when you say that this discussion is costing you too much time and energy.

I often feel the same way about some of the threads I have become involved in.

This being so, please do not feel obliged to respond to what I shall now post.

I think that what we may have here is a slight misunderstanding caused by language usage.

You said:- "---lesser quality wood which makes quicker carving possible---"

What I understand by this statement is that the wood in and of itself is of a low quality.

There is nothing that I can see in the photograph of chregu's keris that would indicate that the quality of wood used is sub-standard. Yes, the quality of workmanship does leave something to be desired, but all indications are that the wood itself is a decent quality wood.

I have not seen nearly as many of this keris type as you tell us you have seen, but all that I have seen have used wood of decent quality, and the actual workmanship has varied enormously from superb all the way down to absolute garbage.

In fact, the speed with which wood can be carved depends upon wood of a decent quality being used. It needs to be of a tight, even grain in order to support the detail of the carving, and it needs to be of reasonable hardness. If it is too soft, the carving will not be well supported, if it is too hard, the carving will be too difficult, and additionally, very hard woods sometimes have a tendency to shear off along the grain in detail work.

For instance, black ebony is a beautiful wood, that is very hard and carves well, although it does use time with hand tools, however, its weakness is that it can lose sharp edges when these edges coincide with the cross grain of the wood.

Timoho is one of the most highly prized of wrongko woods, however, we almost never see it carved because the black sections are incredibly difficult to carve,and the pale sections are too soft to support detail well.

Cendono jowo is a very low cost wood, that is pale in colour, and easy to work. It supports carving reasonably well, and can be stained, however, in use, the carved edges in detail work will often give way and you finish up with chips all over the work. The same holds true of cendono wangi, but it is rare to see this carved, and it is extremely expensive.

A low cost wood that fairly easy to carve and that supports detail well is sono---which is what the dark wrongko that David has supplied a pic of probably is. Makassar ebony is also a candidate, but its harder and has a tendency to chip.

Sawo carves well and supports detail well, also, it is not expensive.

In fact, the idea of "lesser quality wood" just does not register with me, because the lower the quality of the wood, the more difficult the job becomes, and you can buy good quality wood for carving at a low price.

The high quality wrongko woods are virtually never carved, because it is their grain that makes them high quality, and the carving will hide that.

However, if we accept that the dress in these highly carved wrongkos is often of less than premium quality, in that the form and detail of the carving, and the overall finish, is less than good, then I for one will wholeheartedly agree.

Henk · 12th April 2010, 07:03 AM

David, Alan,

Due a bussy schedule i will respond later this week.

English is not my mother language and is probably the course of misunderstanding.

Alan, we do understand each other.
David, certainly not hard feelings and now i understand what you mean.

Henk · 14th April 2010, 09:44 PM

David, Alan,

I will try to respond further on this subject.

David, accept my apoligies, english is not my native language. I do understand english rather well, but sometimes winks and phrases I simply cann't understand as the joke they are made for. Just like we can make winks with our Dutch language, which aren't understood by non native speakers.
The keris you show from the archives are made with much more quality than the soldier keris. I do own similar maduran keris which i wouldn't qualify as soldier bring back keris, but more as maduran keris. But then to return to your question, were they made for madurans? I really cann't give you the answer. But looking at these keris I have an example with a carved wrongko and hilt of which i can imagine a maduran would have been proud to wear it.
I think however and it is a carefull guess these appearance of the maduran keris came up in the 40ties or 50ties of the previous century.

Then we come to the next point.
Alan, although i'm not an expert on woodspecies i understand clearly what you mean and how the quality or hardness of the wood gives the results of carving.
The wood of the maduran keris and which David showed us from the archives is of a kind usually used for keris sheats.

The wood of the soldier keris shown in the thread, both Chregu's and Ricks, i always compare with the wood of a firtree. Wood of the firtree is here in Holland low quality wood.

I hope this answer made clear what i ment.

A. G. Maisey · 15th April 2010, 12:26 AM

Thanks for persevering with this Henk.

I won't make any further comment of the idea of wood "quality", as the difference in our perceptions, and possibly differences in language could see us talking forever.

As to dating, yes, I think the carved styles probably did begin to proliferate in about the middle of the 19th century. But really, we're kidding ourselves to presume to put any date on any of the dress styles, simply because there is very little reliable evidence upon which to base our guess.

kulbuntet · 17th April 2010, 12:10 AM

Other example of antique tourist/knil soldier keris. The blad is much older than the scabard.

kulbuntet · 17th April 2010, 12:18 AM

I do understand what Henk is trying to say. Sometimes i think that holland have more keris than wooden shoes.

Most of them are lower quality wood. Type of woord is light. Some times well cut some times not well cut. Some times harder wood, lesser cut quality. And very sometimes hard wood good/beter cut quality.

It not all time thes types of scabard were made only for Knil Soldiers that went back to holland. I have seen photo's of Maduran soldiers in KNIL army. Wearing those types of keris. I find manny of those keris having realy old baldes inside of them. Some of them bought by Indoneisans from Javaneese the give them sheath "upgrade" to be sold to dutch, for higher price. Iff there is realation between Islaam and getting rid of their old kerisses, i dont know.

11th April 2010, 10:40 PM	#1
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	David, I almost should say that this is the problem of this international forum and i hesitate to react on these kerisses. Actually i regret my reaction and opinion. Telling me looking in the wrong boxes on flee markets and you forget the auction houses here in Holland and looking at the pictures you are showing me, i understand that i cann't make clear to you what i mean. Probably you will never understand it, because you're not Dutch. I'm afraid only a Dutch can understand what i mean. I wished the Dutch soldiers brought keris back home of that quality. Almost every Dutch family who had a relative serving in The East, was surprised with a soldier keris of the quality i mentioned like the two shown in this thread. Most of these keris ended in the attic or shed or behind a cupboard. Cleaning up those places because grandpa or grandma passed away was also the moment to get rid of that thing and try to get some money for it. At a certain moment these keris popped up in every place you can imagine. This is my last post on this subject. it cost me to much time and energy.

12th April 2010, 12:39 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Henk, I understand exactly what you mean when you say that this discussion is costing you too much time and energy. I often feel the same way about some of the threads I have become involved in. This being so, please do not feel obliged to respond to what I shall now post. I think that what we may have here is a slight misunderstanding caused by language usage. You said:- "---lesser quality wood which makes quicker carving possible---" What I understand by this statement is that the wood in and of itself is of a low quality. There is nothing that I can see in the photograph of chregu's keris that would indicate that the quality of wood used is sub-standard. Yes, the quality of workmanship does leave something to be desired, but all indications are that the wood itself is a decent quality wood. I have not seen nearly as many of this keris type as you tell us you have seen, but all that I have seen have used wood of decent quality, and the actual workmanship has varied enormously from superb all the way down to absolute garbage. In fact, the speed with which wood can be carved depends upon wood of a decent quality being used. It needs to be of a tight, even grain in order to support the detail of the carving, and it needs to be of reasonable hardness. If it is too soft, the carving will not be well supported, if it is too hard, the carving will be too difficult, and additionally, very hard woods sometimes have a tendency to shear off along the grain in detail work. For instance, black ebony is a beautiful wood, that is very hard and carves well, although it does use time with hand tools, however, its weakness is that it can lose sharp edges when these edges coincide with the cross grain of the wood. Timoho is one of the most highly prized of wrongko woods, however, we almost never see it carved because the black sections are incredibly difficult to carve,and the pale sections are too soft to support detail well. Cendono jowo is a very low cost wood, that is pale in colour, and easy to work. It supports carving reasonably well, and can be stained, however, in use, the carved edges in detail work will often give way and you finish up with chips all over the work. The same holds true of cendono wangi, but it is rare to see this carved, and it is extremely expensive. A low cost wood that fairly easy to carve and that supports detail well is sono---which is what the dark wrongko that David has supplied a pic of probably is. Makassar ebony is also a candidate, but its harder and has a tendency to chip. Sawo carves well and supports detail well, also, it is not expensive. In fact, the idea of "lesser quality wood" just does not register with me, because the lower the quality of the wood, the more difficult the job becomes, and you can buy good quality wood for carving at a low price. The high quality wrongko woods are virtually never carved, because it is their grain that makes them high quality, and the carving will hide that. However, if we accept that the dress in these highly carved wrongkos is often of less than premium quality, in that the form and detail of the carving, and the overall finish, is less than good, then I for one will wholeheartedly agree.

12th April 2010, 07:03 AM	#3
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	David, Alan, Due a bussy schedule i will respond later this week. English is not my mother language and is probably the course of misunderstanding. Alan, we do understand each other. David, certainly not hard feelings and now i understand what you mean.

14th April 2010, 09:44 PM	#4
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	David, Alan, I will try to respond further on this subject. David, accept my apoligies, english is not my native language. I do understand english rather well, but sometimes winks and phrases I simply cann't understand as the joke they are made for. Just like we can make winks with our Dutch language, which aren't understood by non native speakers. The keris you show from the archives are made with much more quality than the soldier keris. I do own similar maduran keris which i wouldn't qualify as soldier bring back keris, but more as maduran keris. But then to return to your question, were they made for madurans? I really cann't give you the answer. But looking at these keris I have an example with a carved wrongko and hilt of which i can imagine a maduran would have been proud to wear it. I think however and it is a carefull guess these appearance of the maduran keris came up in the 40ties or 50ties of the previous century. Then we come to the next point. Alan, although i'm not an expert on woodspecies i understand clearly what you mean and how the quality or hardness of the wood gives the results of carving. The wood of the maduran keris and which David showed us from the archives is of a kind usually used for keris sheats. The wood of the soldier keris shown in the thread, both Chregu's and Ricks, i always compare with the wood of a firtree. Wood of the firtree is here in Holland low quality wood. I hope this answer made clear what i ment.

15th April 2010, 12:26 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Thanks for persevering with this Henk. I won't make any further comment of the idea of wood "quality", as the difference in our perceptions, and possibly differences in language could see us talking forever. As to dating, yes, I think the carved styles probably did begin to proliferate in about the middle of the 19th century. But really, we're kidding ourselves to presume to put any date on any of the dress styles, simply because there is very little reliable evidence upon which to base our guess.

17th April 2010, 12:10 AM	#6
kulbuntet Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands Posts: 159	Other example of antique tourist/knil soldier keris. The blad is much older than the scabard.

17th April 2010, 12:18 AM	#7
kulbuntet Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands Posts: 159	I do understand what Henk is trying to say. Sometimes i think that holland have more keris than wooden shoes. Most of them are lower quality wood. Type of woord is light. Some times well cut some times not well cut. Some times harder wood, lesser cut quality. And very sometimes hard wood good/beter cut quality. It not all time thes types of scabard were made only for Knil Soldiers that went back to holland. I have seen photo's of Maduran soldiers in KNIL army. Wearing those types of keris. I find manny of those keris having realy old baldes inside of them. Some of them bought by Indoneisans from Javaneese the give them sheath "upgrade" to be sold to dutch, for higher price. Iff there is realation between Islaam and getting rid of their old kerisses, i dont know.