comments on this barung lamenation?

Rick · 31st May 2005, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Rick:

Seems to me that this one has been folded along the long axis of the blade (that is, along the length of the blade), then the blade was forged to its width and approximate shape, and then ground to its final form. What we are seeing, I think, is a series of layers that vary simply with the thickness of the blade, rather than a more complex pattern caused by twisting, etc. during the forging process.

Ian.

Is this the same method of forging that was used to produce Spunjer's blade ?
It looks a little similar what with the layer lines looking like they're going to either side of the blade from a center line .

Ian · 31st May 2005, 11:25 PM

Rick:

I think your's and Spunjer's are made similarly. But don't forget the profile of his blade is different from your's. Basically, your blade is a tapering "V" but Spunjer's is somewhat hollow ground above a swollen edge, with a pronounced ridge separating the two. Just by the nature of the grind on Spunjer's you would expect to see more patterning because more layers are being exposed by virtue of the grinding. The fact that there is considerable contrast between the metals of the various layers makes Spunjer's pattern more obvious.

Ian.

RSWORD · 1st June 2005, 12:56 AM

I will take a poke at these two pieces. Spunjers example appears to be of pile construction. That is where various bars of steel/iron are used, "piled" upon one another and forged out. The lamination that is seen is a result of the different metals etching out in different ways. In Rick's example, I believe the blade is of sandwhich construction. The center portion or body of the blade is lamellar steel with a long forging flaw down the center. The cutting edge is probably a higher carbon steel that has been sandwhiched and then heat treated. I believe it was then put to a post-quench annealing. The edge has a hamon-like feature(even has a bit of a cloudy appearance) and this is typical in the sandwhich lamination. There seem to be small isolated islands just above the "temper" line in a few spots. I believe the Japanese call these Utsuri(?) and this is a result of a post-quench annealing. I think there might be a seperate spine welded to the body to complete the blade. Overall, a fairly complicated forging with beautiful lines and I imagine quite a sharp and hard edge.

tom hyle · 1st June 2005, 09:21 AM

Rick's blade does seem to have an applied spine, which as far as I see, is the only unusual thing about it. A mysterious feature I've seen on a variety of swords. It does not particularly look like a sandwiched blade; where would you get that from? A pinched in edge that does not go all the way thru is more likely on a barong, though, of course, one cannot see the difference in a flatwise picture of a SE blade. Both these blades seem to show a long line down the center from a final fold, perpendicular to the plain of the blade (and made before edge insertion). An interesting thing about this is that it is common with Visayan blades to have the last fold leave a prominant closed loop/bend at the tip. How else would it be? folded flatwise. With the loop at the rear. With the loop cut off (often considered a weak/delammy place in many cultures, but here I think we see the Oceanic E Asian concept of completeness.). The spreading of the lines and then coming back together is a natural outgrowth of forging the barong shape; a thick narrow rod is forged out wider and then narrowed to the tip, and is spread out thinner and thinner....
On distinguishing an inlaid edge from a hardening line: It can be hard, especially from photos or with an unetched blade. The easiest way is to follow the layers. If the line follows the waves of the layers it's probably inlaid; if it cuts across the layers and they continue right across it, it must be a hardening line. Another is if you can see it at spine and tip. Outside of Japan temper lines are almost always more or less even/straight (ie. not waved, though they may curve), so if there's a lot of activity that points you toward a lamination line. Of course a blade might have both.

Gt Obach · 1st June 2005, 02:06 PM

I second the sandwich billet for the top..

basically its a flat stack...forged out ... then the final shape is forge on the edge of the billet.... like turning a sandwich sideways so you can see whats in it.. lol

second one looks the same......but a thick shim (possibly high carb steel) was added to the top and bottom of the flat stack when forging out......

( oh... and billet was also shimmed between the billet on the last fold )

forging a billet out on its welds like this.... really tests how strong your forge welds are....because a poor weld will delaminate easy....

by the way......I love these Barongs .... some day i'll get my mitts on one...

cool post
Greg

Federico · 1st June 2005, 03:54 PM

Fairly common lamination pattern, done very well. Part of the problem with the net, while a great resource, tends to have a limited selection of actual examples, so it can be hard to guage commonality just on the web. Have a few barongs with similar construction, though in varying degrees of finesse. I figure you could easily say pre WWII for the piece, there isnt a center ridge on the scabbard (hallmark of a post WWII scabbard). Though, at least from the cockatua, I would tend to shy away from the 19th century, particularly since this piece looks so complete.

tom hyle · 2nd June 2005, 12:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gt Obach

I second the sandwich billet for the top..

basically its a flat stack...forged out ... then the final shape is forge on the edge of the billet.... like turning a sandwich sideways so you can see whats in it.. lol

second one looks the same......but a thick shim (possibly high carb steel) was added to the top and bottom of the flat stack when forging out......

Greg

I'm almost 100% sure that what Rsword meant by "sandwich" is what is (incorrectly from what I'm told) called "san mai" in USA; a full-width layer of edge steel welded between two full-width side plates of iron or lower carbon steel.
Otherwise, I basically agree. I don't think the edge bits were welded on before the final fold, as you propose, and I highly suspect they are pinced into the edge of the blade. Both blades show some sign of this.

Gt Obach · 2nd June 2005, 05:33 AM

oh I see...... my idea of a sandwich is basically a stack of flat laminates...

as for the center .... its to your advantage to add a layer inbetween when you fold steel... it makes up for the steel lost due to forge scale... (therefore keeping your billet from shrinking in size)

as for a pinced edge..... if this is the similar technique used to weld the steeled bit into an axehead....I can see lots of problems happening if you were to do this with a thin edge.... hot cutting the slot or groove for the steel bit/edge to fit in would be hard to do... (theres not enough metal)

but if you were to add the steel after the billet is squared and then pointed at one end..... you'd end up with a thick edge look .....its very similar to viking twist core swords........ cept this has no twists..... and the core laminates are sideways to show long lines....

heres a little knife I just made..... cept its got twists and folded...... and no outer edge......but it has the lines

http://gal.bladesmith.org/view_album...e=greg_t_obach

Greg

31st May 2005, 11:25 PM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,453	Rick: I think your's and Spunjer's are made similarly. But don't forget the profile of his blade is different from your's. Basically, your blade is a tapering "V" but Spunjer's is somewhat hollow ground above a swollen edge, with a pronounced ridge separating the two. Just by the nature of the grind on Spunjer's you would expect to see more patterning because more layers are being exposed by virtue of the grinding. The fact that there is considerable contrast between the metals of the various layers makes Spunjer's pattern more obvious. Ian.

1st June 2005, 12:56 AM	#3
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,087	I will take a poke at these two pieces. Spunjers example appears to be of pile construction. That is where various bars of steel/iron are used, "piled" upon one another and forged out. The lamination that is seen is a result of the different metals etching out in different ways. In Rick's example, I believe the blade is of sandwhich construction. The center portion or body of the blade is lamellar steel with a long forging flaw down the center. The cutting edge is probably a higher carbon steel that has been sandwhiched and then heat treated. I believe it was then put to a post-quench annealing. The edge has a hamon-like feature(even has a bit of a cloudy appearance) and this is typical in the sandwhich lamination. There seem to be small isolated islands just above the "temper" line in a few spots. I believe the Japanese call these Utsuri(?) and this is a result of a post-quench annealing. I think there might be a seperate spine welded to the body to complete the blade. Overall, a fairly complicated forging with beautiful lines and I imagine quite a sharp and hard edge.

1st June 2005, 09:21 AM	#4
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Rick's blade does seem to have an applied spine, which as far as I see, is the only unusual thing about it. A mysterious feature I've seen on a variety of swords. It does not particularly look like a sandwiched blade; where would you get that from? A pinched in edge that does not go all the way thru is more likely on a barong, though, of course, one cannot see the difference in a flatwise picture of a SE blade. Both these blades seem to show a long line down the center from a final fold, perpendicular to the plain of the blade (and made before edge insertion). An interesting thing about this is that it is common with Visayan blades to have the last fold leave a prominant closed loop/bend at the tip. How else would it be? folded flatwise. With the loop at the rear. With the loop cut off (often considered a weak/delammy place in many cultures, but here I think we see the Oceanic E Asian concept of completeness.). The spreading of the lines and then coming back together is a natural outgrowth of forging the barong shape; a thick narrow rod is forged out wider and then narrowed to the tip, and is spread out thinner and thinner.... On distinguishing an inlaid edge from a hardening line: It can be hard, especially from photos or with an unetched blade. The easiest way is to follow the layers. If the line follows the waves of the layers it's probably inlaid; if it cuts across the layers and they continue right across it, it must be a hardening line. Another is if you can see it at spine and tip. Outside of Japan temper lines are almost always more or less even/straight (ie. not waved, though they may curve), so if there's a lot of activity that points you toward a lamination line. Of course a blade might have both.

1st June 2005, 02:06 PM	#5
Gt Obach Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 116	I second the sandwich billet for the top.. basically its a flat stack...forged out ... then the final shape is forge on the edge of the billet.... like turning a sandwich sideways so you can see whats in it.. lol second one looks the same......but a thick shim (possibly high carb steel) was added to the top and bottom of the flat stack when forging out...... ( oh... and billet was also shimmed between the billet on the last fold ) forging a billet out on its welds like this.... really tests how strong your forge welds are....because a poor weld will delaminate easy.... by the way......I love these Barongs .... some day i'll get my mitts on one... cool post Greg

1st June 2005, 03:54 PM	#6
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	Fairly common lamination pattern, done very well. Part of the problem with the net, while a great resource, tends to have a limited selection of actual examples, so it can be hard to guage commonality just on the web. Have a few barongs with similar construction, though in varying degrees of finesse. I figure you could easily say pre WWII for the piece, there isnt a center ridge on the scabbard (hallmark of a post WWII scabbard). Though, at least from the cockatua, I would tend to shy away from the 19th century, particularly since this piece looks so complete.

2nd June 2005, 05:33 AM	#8
Gt Obach Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 116	oh I see...... my idea of a sandwich is basically a stack of flat laminates... as for the center .... its to your advantage to add a layer inbetween when you fold steel... it makes up for the steel lost due to forge scale... (therefore keeping your billet from shrinking in size) as for a pinced edge..... if this is the similar technique used to weld the steeled bit into an axehead....I can see lots of problems happening if you were to do this with a thin edge.... hot cutting the slot or groove for the steel bit/edge to fit in would be hard to do... (theres not enough metal) but if you were to add the steel after the billet is squared and then pointed at one end..... you'd end up with a thick edge look .....its very similar to viking twist core swords........ cept this has no twists..... and the core laminates are sideways to show long lines.... heres a little knife I just made..... cept its got twists and folded...... and no outer edge......but it has the lines http://gal.bladesmith.org/view_album...e=greg_t_obach Greg