Sumatra Keris tourist or not?

Henk · 11th April 2010, 08:42 AM

Rick,

There are carved maduran wrongko's en gandars and if i remembered well in a thread about maduran scabbards a wrongko with lying lion is shown.

In that case i completely agree with you. But the keris type we are discussing here are dressed in lesser quality wood which makes quicker carving possible. This quality wouldnt be the choice of a maduran for his kerisblade.

Marcokeris · 11th April 2010, 01:16 PM

Another carved madura wrongko

A. G. Maisey · 11th April 2010, 01:17 PM

Henk, you're a better man than me.

I simply cannot tell with any certainty the quality of the wood in chregu's scabbard.

What I can see is a reasonably close grained wood that supports a reasonably fine carving pattern, the scabbard is old, but the pattern of the carving has not collapsed; the wood looks as if it has been stained black, but the area on the hilt where it has worn through seems to have a reddish colour, so it is possible that this wood might be sawo, which does have similar grain and support characteristics, if it is sawo, it is not a low quality wood, but quite a respectable wood.

If the wood has not been stained black, it might be sono--- but it doesn't really look like sono---and again, sono is a decent wood.

Since you have been able to detect that this is a low quality wood, could you please tell us how you were able to know this from the photos.

Thanks.

Henk · 11th April 2010, 03:00 PM

Alan,

That is really to much honor.

As i mentioned before, you couldn't enter an auction house or fleemarket here in Holland without stumbling over these soldier keris. Sometimes just 10 in a box.
If you had a lot of more keris in an auction house 10 to 1 you had 1 or 2 of such keris among them.

It is certainly not detecting the quality of wood from a picture as handling these keris so many times that it is not hard to recognize this kind of keris and recalling the quality of wood on all these keris.
I would be very surprised when the wood of Chregu's scabbard would be of a different wood quality than the scabbards of these type of keris.

On the keris Marcokeris is showing us, i will not give any comment on the scabbard simply because i cann't.

And to be honest, i owned both of these soldier keris shown here by Chregu and Rick in this thread. Sometimes it drove me to madness discovering again a soldier keris among the few keris i bought. Just reselling and hoping it wouldn't take too long before someone was willing to buy it.
I sold them all accept one with a lying lion wrongko. Today i regret i didn't kept such a keris as Chregru is showing. Regrets because i realize more and more the historical period these keris represent. But i'm convinced today or tomorrow i will stumble against such a keris like Chregru's for fish and chips because here in Holland these keris are still considered as the first tourist items brought back by our soldiers.

So Alan, it is not that i am able detecting woodquality from a picture, in that case i would be rich and famous, but the expierence of handling these keris through the years.

David · 11th April 2010, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henk

As i mentioned before, you couldn't enter an auction house or fleemarket here in Holland without stumbling over these soldier keris. Sometimes just 10 in a box.
If you had a lot of more keris in an auction house 10 to 1 you had 1 or 2 of such keris among them.

It is certainly not detecting the quality of wood from a picture as handling these keris so many times that it is not hard to recognize this kind of keris and recalling the quality of wood on all these keris.
I would be very surprised when the wood of Chregu's scabbard would be of a different wood quality than the scabbards of these type of keris.

And to be honest, i owned both of these soldier keris shown here by Chregu and Rick in this thread. Sometimes it drove me to madness discovering again a soldier keris among the few keris i bought. Just reselling and hoping it wouldn't take too long before someone was willing to buy it.
I sold them all accept one with a lying lion wrongko. Today i regret i didn't kept such a keris as Chregru is showing. Regrets because i realize more and more the historical period these keris represent. But i'm convinced today or tomorrow i will stumble against such a keris like Chregru's for fish and chips because here in Holland these keris are still considered as the first tourist items brought back by our soldiers.

Henk, i must say that over the years i have seen many of these "soldier keris" and like all things keris they come in all different levels of quality. So i do not know how you can possibly make the assumption that the quality of the wood will be the same on every one of this type of dress. Certainly a majority of these keris are going to be in this less quality of wood and execution, but not all. I went back for just a brief search in the archives and dug up a few examples that have been presented in the past by Erik, Alan and Ganja that are all of a much finer quality in both carving and wood than, say, Rick's example (no offense Rick

). I recall once seeing a particularly fine example that surpasses these ones by far, but i haven't come across it in my quick search. So all i can think is that maybe you have just been looking in the wrong boxes at flea markets all these years.

Henk · 11th April 2010, 10:40 PM

David,

I almost should say that this is the problem of this international forum and i hesitate to react on these kerisses. Actually i regret my reaction and opinion.

Telling me looking in the wrong boxes on flee markets and you forget the auction houses here in Holland and looking at the pictures you are showing me, i understand that i cann't make clear to you what i mean. Probably you will never understand it, because you're not Dutch.
I'm afraid only a Dutch can understand what i mean. I wished the Dutch soldiers brought keris back home of that quality. Almost every Dutch family who had a relative serving in The East, was surprised with a soldier keris of the quality i mentioned like the two shown in this thread. Most of these keris ended in the attic or shed or behind a cupboard. Cleaning up those places because grandpa or grandma passed away was also the moment to get rid of that thing and try to get some money for it. At a certain moment these keris popped up in every place you can imagine.

This is my last post on this subject. it cost me to much time and energy.

A. G. Maisey · 12th April 2010, 12:39 AM

Henk, I understand exactly what you mean when you say that this discussion is costing you too much time and energy.

I often feel the same way about some of the threads I have become involved in.

This being so, please do not feel obliged to respond to what I shall now post.

I think that what we may have here is a slight misunderstanding caused by language usage.

You said:- "---lesser quality wood which makes quicker carving possible---"

What I understand by this statement is that the wood in and of itself is of a low quality.

There is nothing that I can see in the photograph of chregu's keris that would indicate that the quality of wood used is sub-standard. Yes, the quality of workmanship does leave something to be desired, but all indications are that the wood itself is a decent quality wood.

I have not seen nearly as many of this keris type as you tell us you have seen, but all that I have seen have used wood of decent quality, and the actual workmanship has varied enormously from superb all the way down to absolute garbage.

In fact, the speed with which wood can be carved depends upon wood of a decent quality being used. It needs to be of a tight, even grain in order to support the detail of the carving, and it needs to be of reasonable hardness. If it is too soft, the carving will not be well supported, if it is too hard, the carving will be too difficult, and additionally, very hard woods sometimes have a tendency to shear off along the grain in detail work.

For instance, black ebony is a beautiful wood, that is very hard and carves well, although it does use time with hand tools, however, its weakness is that it can lose sharp edges when these edges coincide with the cross grain of the wood.

Timoho is one of the most highly prized of wrongko woods, however, we almost never see it carved because the black sections are incredibly difficult to carve,and the pale sections are too soft to support detail well.

Cendono jowo is a very low cost wood, that is pale in colour, and easy to work. It supports carving reasonably well, and can be stained, however, in use, the carved edges in detail work will often give way and you finish up with chips all over the work. The same holds true of cendono wangi, but it is rare to see this carved, and it is extremely expensive.

A low cost wood that fairly easy to carve and that supports detail well is sono---which is what the dark wrongko that David has supplied a pic of probably is. Makassar ebony is also a candidate, but its harder and has a tendency to chip.

Sawo carves well and supports detail well, also, it is not expensive.

In fact, the idea of "lesser quality wood" just does not register with me, because the lower the quality of the wood, the more difficult the job becomes, and you can buy good quality wood for carving at a low price.

The high quality wrongko woods are virtually never carved, because it is their grain that makes them high quality, and the carving will hide that.

However, if we accept that the dress in these highly carved wrongkos is often of less than premium quality, in that the form and detail of the carving, and the overall finish, is less than good, then I for one will wholeheartedly agree.

Henk · 12th April 2010, 07:03 AM

David, Alan,

Due a bussy schedule i will respond later this week.

English is not my mother language and is probably the course of misunderstanding.

Alan, we do understand each other.
David, certainly not hard feelings and now i understand what you mean.

11th April 2010, 01:16 PM	#2
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	Another carved madura wrongko Attached Images

11th April 2010, 08:42 AM	#1
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Rick, There are carved maduran wrongko's en gandars and if i remembered well in a thread about maduran scabbards a wrongko with lying lion is shown. In that case i completely agree with you. But the keris type we are discussing here are dressed in lesser quality wood which makes quicker carving possible. This quality wouldnt be the choice of a maduran for his kerisblade.

11th April 2010, 01:17 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Henk, you're a better man than me. I simply cannot tell with any certainty the quality of the wood in chregu's scabbard. What I can see is a reasonably close grained wood that supports a reasonably fine carving pattern, the scabbard is old, but the pattern of the carving has not collapsed; the wood looks as if it has been stained black, but the area on the hilt where it has worn through seems to have a reddish colour, so it is possible that this wood might be sawo, which does have similar grain and support characteristics, if it is sawo, it is not a low quality wood, but quite a respectable wood. If the wood has not been stained black, it might be sono--- but it doesn't really look like sono---and again, sono is a decent wood. Since you have been able to detect that this is a low quality wood, could you please tell us how you were able to know this from the photos. Thanks.

11th April 2010, 03:00 PM	#4
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Alan, That is really to much honor. As i mentioned before, you couldn't enter an auction house or fleemarket here in Holland without stumbling over these soldier keris. Sometimes just 10 in a box. If you had a lot of more keris in an auction house 10 to 1 you had 1 or 2 of such keris among them. It is certainly not detecting the quality of wood from a picture as handling these keris so many times that it is not hard to recognize this kind of keris and recalling the quality of wood on all these keris. I would be very surprised when the wood of Chregu's scabbard would be of a different wood quality than the scabbards of these type of keris. On the keris Marcokeris is showing us, i will not give any comment on the scabbard simply because i cann't. And to be honest, i owned both of these soldier keris shown here by Chregu and Rick in this thread. Sometimes it drove me to madness discovering again a soldier keris among the few keris i bought. Just reselling and hoping it wouldn't take too long before someone was willing to buy it. I sold them all accept one with a lying lion wrongko. Today i regret i didn't kept such a keris as Chregru is showing. Regrets because i realize more and more the historical period these keris represent. But i'm convinced today or tomorrow i will stumble against such a keris like Chregru's for fish and chips because here in Holland these keris are still considered as the first tourist items brought back by our soldiers. So Alan, it is not that i am able detecting woodquality from a picture, in that case i would be rich and famous, but the expierence of handling these keris through the years.

11th April 2010, 10:40 PM	#6
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	David, I almost should say that this is the problem of this international forum and i hesitate to react on these kerisses. Actually i regret my reaction and opinion. Telling me looking in the wrong boxes on flee markets and you forget the auction houses here in Holland and looking at the pictures you are showing me, i understand that i cann't make clear to you what i mean. Probably you will never understand it, because you're not Dutch. I'm afraid only a Dutch can understand what i mean. I wished the Dutch soldiers brought keris back home of that quality. Almost every Dutch family who had a relative serving in The East, was surprised with a soldier keris of the quality i mentioned like the two shown in this thread. Most of these keris ended in the attic or shed or behind a cupboard. Cleaning up those places because grandpa or grandma passed away was also the moment to get rid of that thing and try to get some money for it. At a certain moment these keris popped up in every place you can imagine. This is my last post on this subject. it cost me to much time and energy.

12th April 2010, 12:39 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Henk, I understand exactly what you mean when you say that this discussion is costing you too much time and energy. I often feel the same way about some of the threads I have become involved in. This being so, please do not feel obliged to respond to what I shall now post. I think that what we may have here is a slight misunderstanding caused by language usage. You said:- "---lesser quality wood which makes quicker carving possible---" What I understand by this statement is that the wood in and of itself is of a low quality. There is nothing that I can see in the photograph of chregu's keris that would indicate that the quality of wood used is sub-standard. Yes, the quality of workmanship does leave something to be desired, but all indications are that the wood itself is a decent quality wood. I have not seen nearly as many of this keris type as you tell us you have seen, but all that I have seen have used wood of decent quality, and the actual workmanship has varied enormously from superb all the way down to absolute garbage. In fact, the speed with which wood can be carved depends upon wood of a decent quality being used. It needs to be of a tight, even grain in order to support the detail of the carving, and it needs to be of reasonable hardness. If it is too soft, the carving will not be well supported, if it is too hard, the carving will be too difficult, and additionally, very hard woods sometimes have a tendency to shear off along the grain in detail work. For instance, black ebony is a beautiful wood, that is very hard and carves well, although it does use time with hand tools, however, its weakness is that it can lose sharp edges when these edges coincide with the cross grain of the wood. Timoho is one of the most highly prized of wrongko woods, however, we almost never see it carved because the black sections are incredibly difficult to carve,and the pale sections are too soft to support detail well. Cendono jowo is a very low cost wood, that is pale in colour, and easy to work. It supports carving reasonably well, and can be stained, however, in use, the carved edges in detail work will often give way and you finish up with chips all over the work. The same holds true of cendono wangi, but it is rare to see this carved, and it is extremely expensive. A low cost wood that fairly easy to carve and that supports detail well is sono---which is what the dark wrongko that David has supplied a pic of probably is. Makassar ebony is also a candidate, but its harder and has a tendency to chip. Sawo carves well and supports detail well, also, it is not expensive. In fact, the idea of "lesser quality wood" just does not register with me, because the lower the quality of the wood, the more difficult the job becomes, and you can buy good quality wood for carving at a low price. The high quality wrongko woods are virtually never carved, because it is their grain that makes them high quality, and the carving will hide that. However, if we accept that the dress in these highly carved wrongkos is often of less than premium quality, in that the form and detail of the carving, and the overall finish, is less than good, then I for one will wholeheartedly agree.

12th April 2010, 07:03 AM	#8
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	David, Alan, Due a bussy schedule i will respond later this week. English is not my mother language and is probably the course of misunderstanding. Alan, we do understand each other. David, certainly not hard feelings and now i understand what you mean.