Insights into Chinese ring pommel swords

Jim McDougall · 11th April 2010, 03:45 AM

On the 'blood' dynamics with tassels, cloths etc. ...it seems the folklore with weapons and blood features are virtually a given as battle stories are embellished through the years. The most common is of course the 'blood gutters', a cleverly construed story for the less colorful reason for these blade channels, simply to lighten and strengthen the blade. Yet these perceptions persist in lesser informed story telling.
Notches in blades, sword catchers, sliding weights on blades, multiple blades, serrated blades purpose in battle, wavy blades, all have dramatic tales of thier functions, though most have been proven to be fanciful license.

The tassels seem more embellishment than useful as described. It is hard to imagine that distraction would be in the least bit feasible in the melee, where confusion and chaos reigns. In civilian martial arts demonstrations, of course it would be impressive to spectators.

I think Fearn and Gav's comments emphasizing the mastery of Oriental simplicity are well placed, and it is easy to see how this functional feature would be maintained. It is interesting to consider that perhaps centuries ago, there was a time when it was embellished with symbolism, eventually returning to its less symbolized presence.

All best regards,
Jim

Nathaniel · 11th April 2010, 03:24 PM

Picture of some more ring pommels

Neil · 11th April 2010, 08:03 PM

Wow! I really appreciate the great response. I am glad I could contribute a topic that people are interested in. One thing I was musing about was the question of who used these swords, and what was their station in society. Do we know if they were found throughout China or only regionally. Also, why would one use, choose, or be issued this type of sword over a liuyedao and yanmaodao etc. To narrow the time-line down a little I was thinking particularly about the last few centuries, which I believe includes many of the examples collectors and enthusiasts like ourselves have in their possession today. Maybe the answers to some of these questions might enrich our perspective on the original question. Honestly, I do not have any solid answers at this point so I look forward to the information others can offer.

Maskell · 15th April 2010, 04:14 AM

Gentleman,

A few ring pommel swords from my collection. The one on the far left is inscribed in Chinese "FEB 1943 Made". The tallest one in the image towards the right has been ID as being 2nd to 5th century AD by a very knowledgeable collector.

Best,
Jerry

Neil · 28th April 2010, 02:15 PM

Thanks for sharing the picture. There are definitely some interesting pieces. I am curious about others thoughts on the dates of the swords 4 through 8 from the left. This is relative to my previous question of who would use these swords. Would they be classified as civilian, village militia, military, or rebellion arms. Maybe they could be any of the above. As far as I can tell there is very little scholarship available in English on this subject. So for now the collective knowledge of this type of group on the forum seems very important.

11th April 2010, 08:03 PM	#3
Neil Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 116	Wow! I really appreciate the great response. I am glad I could contribute a topic that people are interested in. One thing I was musing about was the question of who used these swords, and what was their station in society. Do we know if they were found throughout China or only regionally. Also, why would one use, choose, or be issued this type of sword over a liuyedao and yanmaodao etc. To narrow the time-line down a little I was thinking particularly about the last few centuries, which I believe includes many of the examples collectors and enthusiasts like ourselves have in their possession today. Maybe the answers to some of these questions might enrich our perspective on the original question. Honestly, I do not have any solid answers at this point so I look forward to the information others can offer. Last edited by Neil; 12th April 2010 at 05:12 AM.

15th April 2010, 04:14 AM	#4
Maskell Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 38	RING POMMEL CHINESE SWORDS Gentleman, A few ring pommel swords from my collection. The one on the far left is inscribed in Chinese "FEB 1943 Made". The tallest one in the image towards the right has been ID as being 2nd to 5th century AD by a very knowledgeable collector. Best, Jerry Attached Images

28th April 2010, 02:15 PM	#5
Neil Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 116	Thanks for sharing the picture. There are definitely some interesting pieces. I am curious about others thoughts on the dates of the swords 4 through 8 from the left. This is relative to my previous question of who would use these swords. Would they be classified as civilian, village militia, military, or rebellion arms. Maybe they could be any of the above. As far as I can tell there is very little scholarship available in English on this subject. So for now the collective knowledge of this type of group on the forum seems very important. Last edited by Neil; 29th April 2010 at 12:47 AM.

11th April 2010, 03:45 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,595	On the 'blood' dynamics with tassels, cloths etc. ...it seems the folklore with weapons and blood features are virtually a given as battle stories are embellished through the years. The most common is of course the 'blood gutters', a cleverly construed story for the less colorful reason for these blade channels, simply to lighten and strengthen the blade. Yet these perceptions persist in lesser informed story telling. Notches in blades, sword catchers, sliding weights on blades, multiple blades, serrated blades purpose in battle, wavy blades, all have dramatic tales of thier functions, though most have been proven to be fanciful license. The tassels seem more embellishment than useful as described. It is hard to imagine that distraction would be in the least bit feasible in the melee, where confusion and chaos reigns. In civilian martial arts demonstrations, of course it would be impressive to spectators. I think Fearn and Gav's comments emphasizing the mastery of Oriental simplicity are well placed, and it is easy to see how this functional feature would be maintained. It is interesting to consider that perhaps centuries ago, there was a time when it was embellished with symbolism, eventually returning to its less symbolized presence. All best regards, Jim

11th April 2010, 03:24 PM	#2
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	Picture of some more ring pommels