And what is this one??

ariel · 2nd January 2010, 05:54 PM

I am a slow thinker, so bear with me.
First of all, it has a kindjal blade and the upper fitting of the scabbard is also in the kindjal mode ( so-called antabka). The blade of the kindjal is very massive and has a pronounced diamond section, i.e. features not very popular in the Caucasus or Turkey proper but frequent all over the Balkans, from Bulgaria to Greece and up north. A lot of Circassians and Daghestanis were exiled by the Russains and settled in the Balkans by the Ottomans.
Eared pommel is self-explanatory: Ottoman Empire. However, design pattern has both Turkish ( tulip flowers) and European motives ( flowing ribbons, chevroned ribbons etc). The lanyard hole in the middle of the handle is peculiar. But kilijes had similar security feature.
Altogether I would venture to place it in the Balkans, the crossroads of Europe and Turkey proper.
Obviously, it is a unique piece, made for a one-time buyer who wanted both Caucasian and Turkish motives for his weapon.
The designs on the blade are painfully familiar, but I just cannot place them ( Alzheimer moment? delusion?)
How does the scabbard look? I guess comparing its designs with those in the recent Elgood's book might be useful.
My 3.5 cents worth.....

TKV · 2nd January 2010, 11:07 PM

turkish influenced item, handle looks balkan, but it's not the fact it was made there. I think it's ottoman empire piece.

Steve · 3rd January 2010, 12:53 AM

I may be able to provide one clue on this. The scrimshaw design inside the hilt ears was used in decorating many Empire design items, such as furntiture, architecture, clothing etc. The Empire design was based on aspects of the Greek and Roman Empires made popular in Europe following Napoleons conquests. I'm not a design expert but I think this is what they call Napoleon III, popular about mid to late 1800's. So I think you may be looking around the Greek area or with an owner who was well travelled.

My only other thought is that the substantial blade without grooves, looks like a naval dirk to me.
Steve

Jim McDougall · 3rd January 2010, 01:20 AM

I think this might be an Ottoman naval dirk

TKV · 3rd January 2010, 03:22 PM

i think, the place where this item was found may help to understand it's origin

Artzi, if it's not top secret, where?

Oriental-Arms · 3rd January 2010, 03:30 PM

Auction in Western Europe.

One more point regarding the scrimshaw decoration:

I consulted with a colleage experineced with scrimshaw (he may post his opinion later today). He claims that scrimshaw art was developed by sea people on whale hunting expeditions. This does not include Turkish, Ottomans Balkans and/or other mediteranean cultures. It is more inclined to North European cultures.

Jim McDougall · 3rd January 2010, 04:13 PM

Looking foward to that. It seems the scrimshaw and the lanyard piercing , which Gav very astutely noted in the hilt, may be key factors in learning more on this unique piece.
Since scrimshaw is primarily an oceanic affectation from Pacific whaling regions and was not recorded before 1817, later entering the Atlantic whaling sphere, it will be fascinating to find the connection to what seems essentially a Meditteranean weapon.

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2nd January 2010, 05:54 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I am a slow thinker, so bear with me. First of all, it has a kindjal blade and the upper fitting of the scabbard is also in the kindjal mode ( so-called antabka). The blade of the kindjal is very massive and has a pronounced diamond section, i.e. features not very popular in the Caucasus or Turkey proper but frequent all over the Balkans, from Bulgaria to Greece and up north. A lot of Circassians and Daghestanis were exiled by the Russains and settled in the Balkans by the Ottomans. Eared pommel is self-explanatory: Ottoman Empire. However, design pattern has both Turkish ( tulip flowers) and European motives ( flowing ribbons, chevroned ribbons etc). The lanyard hole in the middle of the handle is peculiar. But kilijes had similar security feature. Altogether I would venture to place it in the Balkans, the crossroads of Europe and Turkey proper. Obviously, it is a unique piece, made for a one-time buyer who wanted both Caucasian and Turkish motives for his weapon. The designs on the blade are painfully familiar, but I just cannot place them ( Alzheimer moment? delusion?) How does the scabbard look? I guess comparing its designs with those in the recent Elgood's book might be useful. My 3.5 cents worth.....

2nd January 2010, 11:07 PM	#2
TKV Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 32	turkish influenced item, handle looks balkan, but it's not the fact it was made there. I think it's ottoman empire piece.

3rd January 2010, 12:53 AM	#3
Steve Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Sydney Posts: 58	I may be able to provide one clue on this. The scrimshaw design inside the hilt ears was used in decorating many Empire design items, such as furntiture, architecture, clothing etc. The Empire design was based on aspects of the Greek and Roman Empires made popular in Europe following Napoleons conquests. I'm not a design expert but I think this is what they call Napoleon III, popular about mid to late 1800's. So I think you may be looking around the Greek area or with an owner who was well travelled. My only other thought is that the substantial blade without grooves, looks like a naval dirk to me. Steve

3rd January 2010, 01:20 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	I think this might be an Ottoman naval dirk

3rd January 2010, 03:22 PM	#5
TKV Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 32	i think, the place where this item was found may help to understand it's origin Artzi, if it's not top secret, where?

3rd January 2010, 03:30 PM	#6
Oriental-Arms Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Haifa, Israel Posts: 183	Auction in Western Europe. One more point regarding the scrimshaw decoration: I consulted with a colleage experineced with scrimshaw (he may post his opinion later today). He claims that scrimshaw art was developed by sea people on whale hunting expeditions. This does not include Turkish, Ottomans Balkans and/or other mediteranean cultures. It is more inclined to North European cultures.

3rd January 2010, 04:13 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	Looking foward to that. It seems the scrimshaw and the lanyard piercing , which Gav very astutely noted in the hilt, may be key factors in learning more on this unique piece. Since scrimshaw is primarily an oceanic affectation from Pacific whaling regions and was not recorded before 1817, later entering the Atlantic whaling sphere, it will be fascinating to find the connection to what seems essentially a Meditteranean weapon.