Orientation of the grip of this keris

Jussi M. · 23rd November 2008, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Jussi, correct me if I'm wrong, but the way I read your posts is that you are saying pretty much the same thing that I'm saying, that is:- we do not know exactly how the keris was used in the past, however, there is more than one possible way in which it could have been used.

My thoughts exactly Mr. Maisey.

Thanks,

J

David · 23rd November 2008, 08:01 PM

Well Jussi, Victor and his family have quite the reputation in silat circles AFAIK

, so it is obvious that at least some silat teacher is using this "reverse" hilt position and alternative grips in their art. His grip(s) do(es) look a little different from the "ice pick" grip we have been discussing though. That grip i still don't find comfortable in either position, but Alan does so i guess it is fairly subjective. To each their own. Live and let live.

A. G. Maisey · 23rd November 2008, 10:22 PM

Standard orientation, and reverse orientation using the broken grip keris previously shown.

Forward grip and reverse grip.

Different parts of the hand act as the grip cushion, all grips shown feel natural and comfortable.

Other variations of grip are possible and could work as well as the ones I picture here.

drdavid · 24th November 2008, 06:27 AM

Unusual position, that last illustration of yours Alan. Ergonomically we dont vertically load the wrist much in that position. Interestingly there has been some work on using a hiking pole in almost exactly this position with a grip not unlike the keris grip. The research suggested that it was a good position to take load in, so it is very likely you could use a keris quite efficiently with this grip.

http://www.pacerpole.com/index.html

drd

A. G. Maisey · 24th November 2008, 06:54 AM

The keris in the hand using that last position is very, very natural and comfortable. The ham of the hand is fully supported by the top of the gonjo, and it feels as I could give a blow a lot of force. In fact, this is exactly an ice-pick grip, except that the hilt does not go up through the centre of the hand.
Now, if we look at the reliefs of proto-keris at Prambanan, we see pretty much the same grip; yes, the hilts on those weapons are vertical, but the force of the blow is taken into the ham of the hand where it is supported on the gonjo.

You can deliver a blow with a lot of force using such a grip.

PenangsangII · 24th November 2008, 08:43 AM

IMHO, keris grip should be held in the most natural way, whereby the blade should be parallel to the ground and the hilt is angled about 45 degree from the gandik. You dont have to use a lot of force to penetrate your opponents abdomen or neck, but rather the palm will do the job with very less effort. Other ways could be deemed taboo in the regarded palace silat, but of course kampung folks would have other ideas. Though probably as effective, it is still considered wrong in palace ethics. I am speaking from the Malay palace point of views BTW

Jussi M. · 24th November 2008, 09:41 AM

Dont you dare to stab me on a wrong way!

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IMO this guy got it right - it´s not the style that counts, its the end result!

Thanks,

J

Freddy · 24th November 2008, 10:06 AM

Most interesting post, guys.

I've been reading and looking at the added links.

As promised, I post pictures of this keris (or Tappi as Sipakatuo pointed out) when in my hand. At first, I want to state that it's a small keris with a small handle and I have big European hands

Here is first, in my humble opinion, the best way to hold this keris. The handle, when sheathed, would point a bit to the front, away from the wearer's body.

Secondly, I put the handle in the position it was when I got this piece. I must say that, after straightening the peksi (or watting), it was easier to get a grip. Before there just wasn't enough room for my fingers. Therefore, I believe the peksi was bent by accident in the past.

I must say in this way you also get a good grip of the keris. This grip and the first one make it possible to deliver straightforward thrusts and also cuts.

23rd November 2008, 10:22 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,019	Standard orientation, and reverse orientation using the broken grip keris previously shown. Forward grip and reverse grip. Different parts of the hand act as the grip cushion, all grips shown feel natural and comfortable. Other variations of grip are possible and could work as well as the ones I picture here. Attached Images

24th November 2008, 09:41 AM	#7
Jussi M. Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 235	Dont you dare to stab me on a wrong way! . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . IMO this guy got it right - it´s not the style that counts, its the end result! Thanks, J Last edited by Jussi M.; 24th November 2008 at 12:16 PM.

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23rd November 2008, 08:01 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,219	Well Jussi, Victor and his family have quite the reputation in silat circles AFAIK , so it is obvious that at least some silat teacher is using this "reverse" hilt position and alternative grips in their art. His grip(s) do(es) look a little different from the "ice pick" grip we have been discussing though. That grip i still don't find comfortable in either position, but Alan does so i guess it is fairly subjective. To each their own. Live and let live.

24th November 2008, 06:27 AM	#4
drdavid Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 372	Unusual position, that last illustration of yours Alan. Ergonomically we dont vertically load the wrist much in that position. Interestingly there has been some work on using a hiking pole in almost exactly this position with a grip not unlike the keris grip. The research suggested that it was a good position to take load in, so it is very likely you could use a keris quite efficiently with this grip. http://www.pacerpole.com/index.html drd

24th November 2008, 06:54 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,019	The keris in the hand using that last position is very, very natural and comfortable. The ham of the hand is fully supported by the top of the gonjo, and it feels as I could give a blow a lot of force. In fact, this is exactly an ice-pick grip, except that the hilt does not go up through the centre of the hand. Now, if we look at the reliefs of proto-keris at Prambanan, we see pretty much the same grip; yes, the hilts on those weapons are vertical, but the force of the blow is taken into the ham of the hand where it is supported on the gonjo. You can deliver a blow with a lot of force using such a grip.

24th November 2008, 08:43 AM	#6
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	IMHO, keris grip should be held in the most natural way, whereby the blade should be parallel to the ground and the hilt is angled about 45 degree from the gandik. You dont have to use a lot of force to penetrate your opponents abdomen or neck, but rather the palm will do the job with very less effort. Other ways could be deemed taboo in the regarded palace silat, but of course kampung folks would have other ideas. Though probably as effective, it is still considered wrong in palace ethics. I am speaking from the Malay palace point of views BTW

24th November 2008, 10:06 AM	#8
Freddy Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sint-Amandsberg (near Ghent, Belgium) Posts: 830	Most interesting post, guys. I've been reading and looking at the added links. As promised, I post pictures of this keris (or Tappi as Sipakatuo pointed out) when in my hand. At first, I want to state that it's a small keris with a small handle and I have big European hands Here is first, in my humble opinion, the best way to hold this keris. The handle, when sheathed, would point a bit to the front, away from the wearer's body. Secondly, I put the handle in the position it was when I got this piece. I must say that, after straightening the peksi (or watting), it was easier to get a grip. Before there just wasn't enough room for my fingers. Therefore, I believe the peksi was bent by accident in the past. I must say in this way you also get a good grip of the keris. This grip and the first one make it possible to deliver straightforward thrusts and also cuts.