Orientation of the grip of this keris

A. G. Maisey · 23rd November 2008, 07:53 AM

I'm sorry gentlemen, I moved away from consideration of the keris that began this thread long ago.

To me, the question in respect of this specific keris of Freddy's cannot be settled:- we know too little about it; anything is possible. I'm just not prepared to hypothesise in respect of something that we don't have enough evidence for.I believe I corrected my initial spontaneity in post #20.

What we do know is that keris of this type did on occasion have their hilts mounted in this reverse position.

Did this specific keris of Freddy's have its hilt mounted in reverse position by a past owner indigenous to place of origin of this keris?

I most sincerely doubt if any amongst us can answer that question.

My most recent posts have most definitely been in respect of the keris in general.

In so far as adapability of the Bugis style hilt to both rapier style and icepick style grip. With the hilt in a position where it extends above the gandik, an ice-pick grip is not only possible, but is distinctly comfortable and feels "right", to use this grip with the hilt in this position, the blade is reversed so that the side of the hand rests on the long part of the gonjo.

With a hilt in the reverse position, again, both method of grip is possible.

Personally, I don't think that it would have mattered a great deal how the hilt was fixed:- each person would have fixed it as suited himself, and used it according to his own style. Possibly an ordinary farmer or seaman could have gone through his life without ever drawing blood with his keris, and he probably had only a vague idea of how to use it, on the other hand the professional enforcer, or pirate, or standover man, or bandit, or other frequent user of violence would have had a bag of tricks that allowed him to use any one of a number of grips, as the circumstances demanded.

Many years ago I had the good fortune to be taught just a little of the way in which a professional assassin thinks and works. The principal philosophy of my teacher was that one never exposes onself to risk. One waits until the opportunity presents itself and then does the job. This man was Chinese-Javanese and he was not a user of a keris, but a user of knife. Bearing in mind the principles of Malay and Javanese warfare and personal combat, I doubt that the philosophy of experienced users of the keris in times past would have varied much from those of my teacher. If this is so, it is only reasonable that the professional would not limit his ability to earn his pay by limiting himself to a single method of use of his tools of trade.

It seems that once again I have wandered away from discussion of Freddy's keris. Whatever anybody wishes to propose in respect of that particular keris, I agree with.

However, in respect of the keris in general and its methods of use in historical times, I suggest that although we cannot know anything about these with any certainty, a prudent user would have had flexibility of style.I think that the only thing I cannot agree with is that there might have been a rigid "one style suits all" approach, universally adopted by all users.

Jussi M. · 23rd November 2008, 10:53 AM

Greetings,

I know nothing about these things but did found this on the internet.

Short video: One Dutch-Indo´s training footage from the 1970´s

Thanks,

J

Jussi M. · 23rd November 2008, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Jussi, correct me if I'm wrong, but the way I read your posts is that you are saying pretty much the same thing that I'm saying, that is:- we do not know exactly how the keris was used in the past, however, there is more than one possible way in which it could have been used.

My thoughts exactly Mr. Maisey.

Thanks,

J

David · 23rd November 2008, 08:01 PM

Well Jussi, Victor and his family have quite the reputation in silat circles AFAIK

, so it is obvious that at least some silat teacher is using this "reverse" hilt position and alternative grips in their art. His grip(s) do(es) look a little different from the "ice pick" grip we have been discussing though. That grip i still don't find comfortable in either position, but Alan does so i guess it is fairly subjective. To each their own. Live and let live.

A. G. Maisey · 23rd November 2008, 10:22 PM

Standard orientation, and reverse orientation using the broken grip keris previously shown.

Forward grip and reverse grip.

Different parts of the hand act as the grip cushion, all grips shown feel natural and comfortable.

Other variations of grip are possible and could work as well as the ones I picture here.

drdavid · 24th November 2008, 06:27 AM

Unusual position, that last illustration of yours Alan. Ergonomically we dont vertically load the wrist much in that position. Interestingly there has been some work on using a hiking pole in almost exactly this position with a grip not unlike the keris grip. The research suggested that it was a good position to take load in, so it is very likely you could use a keris quite efficiently with this grip.

http://www.pacerpole.com/index.html

drd

A. G. Maisey · 24th November 2008, 06:54 AM

The keris in the hand using that last position is very, very natural and comfortable. The ham of the hand is fully supported by the top of the gonjo, and it feels as I could give a blow a lot of force. In fact, this is exactly an ice-pick grip, except that the hilt does not go up through the centre of the hand.
Now, if we look at the reliefs of proto-keris at Prambanan, we see pretty much the same grip; yes, the hilts on those weapons are vertical, but the force of the blow is taken into the ham of the hand where it is supported on the gonjo.

You can deliver a blow with a lot of force using such a grip.

23rd November 2008, 10:22 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Standard orientation, and reverse orientation using the broken grip keris previously shown. Forward grip and reverse grip. Different parts of the hand act as the grip cushion, all grips shown feel natural and comfortable. Other variations of grip are possible and could work as well as the ones I picture here. Attached Images

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23rd November 2008, 07:53 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	I'm sorry gentlemen, I moved away from consideration of the keris that began this thread long ago. To me, the question in respect of this specific keris of Freddy's cannot be settled:- we know too little about it; anything is possible. I'm just not prepared to hypothesise in respect of something that we don't have enough evidence for.I believe I corrected my initial spontaneity in post #20. What we do know is that keris of this type did on occasion have their hilts mounted in this reverse position. Did this specific keris of Freddy's have its hilt mounted in reverse position by a past owner indigenous to place of origin of this keris? I most sincerely doubt if any amongst us can answer that question. My most recent posts have most definitely been in respect of the keris in general. In so far as adapability of the Bugis style hilt to both rapier style and icepick style grip. With the hilt in a position where it extends above the gandik, an ice-pick grip is not only possible, but is distinctly comfortable and feels "right", to use this grip with the hilt in this position, the blade is reversed so that the side of the hand rests on the long part of the gonjo. With a hilt in the reverse position, again, both method of grip is possible. Personally, I don't think that it would have mattered a great deal how the hilt was fixed:- each person would have fixed it as suited himself, and used it according to his own style. Possibly an ordinary farmer or seaman could have gone through his life without ever drawing blood with his keris, and he probably had only a vague idea of how to use it, on the other hand the professional enforcer, or pirate, or standover man, or bandit, or other frequent user of violence would have had a bag of tricks that allowed him to use any one of a number of grips, as the circumstances demanded. Many years ago I had the good fortune to be taught just a little of the way in which a professional assassin thinks and works. The principal philosophy of my teacher was that one never exposes onself to risk. One waits until the opportunity presents itself and then does the job. This man was Chinese-Javanese and he was not a user of a keris, but a user of knife. Bearing in mind the principles of Malay and Javanese warfare and personal combat, I doubt that the philosophy of experienced users of the keris in times past would have varied much from those of my teacher. If this is so, it is only reasonable that the professional would not limit his ability to earn his pay by limiting himself to a single method of use of his tools of trade. It seems that once again I have wandered away from discussion of Freddy's keris. Whatever anybody wishes to propose in respect of that particular keris, I agree with. However, in respect of the keris in general and its methods of use in historical times, I suggest that although we cannot know anything about these with any certainty, a prudent user would have had flexibility of style.I think that the only thing I cannot agree with is that there might have been a rigid "one style suits all" approach, universally adopted by all users.

23rd November 2008, 10:53 AM	#2
Jussi M. Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 235	Greetings, I know nothing about these things but did found this on the internet. Short video: One Dutch-Indo´s training footage from the 1970´s Thanks, J

23rd November 2008, 08:01 PM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Well Jussi, Victor and his family have quite the reputation in silat circles AFAIK , so it is obvious that at least some silat teacher is using this "reverse" hilt position and alternative grips in their art. His grip(s) do(es) look a little different from the "ice pick" grip we have been discussing though. That grip i still don't find comfortable in either position, but Alan does so i guess it is fairly subjective. To each their own. Live and let live.

24th November 2008, 06:27 AM	#6
drdavid Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 372	Unusual position, that last illustration of yours Alan. Ergonomically we dont vertically load the wrist much in that position. Interestingly there has been some work on using a hiking pole in almost exactly this position with a grip not unlike the keris grip. The research suggested that it was a good position to take load in, so it is very likely you could use a keris quite efficiently with this grip. http://www.pacerpole.com/index.html drd

24th November 2008, 06:54 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	The keris in the hand using that last position is very, very natural and comfortable. The ham of the hand is fully supported by the top of the gonjo, and it feels as I could give a blow a lot of force. In fact, this is exactly an ice-pick grip, except that the hilt does not go up through the centre of the hand. Now, if we look at the reliefs of proto-keris at Prambanan, we see pretty much the same grip; yes, the hilts on those weapons are vertical, but the force of the blow is taken into the ham of the hand where it is supported on the gonjo. You can deliver a blow with a lot of force using such a grip.