Help with Sword ID

PUFF · 24th August 2006, 08:02 AM

Bitter melon/cucumber seed 's ovel/elipse shape (bottom-right of the first pic).
The name 's interchangable with the turtle mark.

The mark was used by both LumPang and Aranyik guilds.

The round mark is called Dok Keaw (Orange Jessamine, flower). It 's not found in Aranyik 's product. Mostly related with LumPang guild.

Currently, there are hypothesis for marks on the spine. The first one is helping a calculation or strategy note. Another one which 's come from more reliable source is that spine marks are blade registration. The marks can be transfer to a paper or cloth with a piece of charcoal and a copy will be kept by town/city officer.

The slug, however, is related with spiritual believe. The most reliable one is that the copper material has a warding power against evil or person's spiritual protection. Some smiths point out the metal keep rust away. But the hypothesis 's less solid sice it 's scientificly not true.

Both marks and slugs may serve their purpose in the old time. But in this modern time, although the marks and slugs are traditional preserved, but its real purpose has been forgotten and they are purely used as a decoration.

Ian · 24th August 2006, 03:13 PM

PUFF:

Thanks so much again for the useful information. Registration marks make sense and the old idea about the slugs is one I had not heard previously. It is interesting that we see these marks on edged weapons other than Darb. I have a small axe/chopper that is probably 100+ years old with similar markings. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=605

Ian

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attach...tid=3259&stc=1
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attach...tid=3261&stc=1

Abravefan11 · 24th August 2006, 09:48 PM

I'd like to thank everyone that contributed to this thread and helped me. You have been a big help and I really appreciate it.

wilked aka Khun Deng · 26th August 2006, 05:33 AM

One other item of note on your sword and others of the like can be found at the guard. There is a thin brass plate nailed into the stock of the handle and in every version I have seen there is no pitch under that plate securing the blade to handle. I've been told that means it was never made for true fighting as the pitch not only secures the blade but acts almost as a shock absorber.

Dan

Abravefan11 · 28th August 2006, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilked aka Khun Deng

One other item of note on your sword and others of the like can be found at the guard. There is a thin brass plate nailed into the stock of the handle and in every version I have seen there is no pitch under that plate securing the blade to handle. I've been told that means it was never made for true fighting as the pitch not only secures the blade but acts almost as a shock absorber.

Dan

I know what you're talking about in reference to the thin brass plate nailed into the stock of the handle. I'm not sure what you mean by "pitch."

Is this something I can see without taking the handle apart? If not how would I go about disassembling it?

Mark · 28th August 2006, 02:37 PM

Pitch would be a vegetable resin used to glue the blade into the handle. What Dan is referring to is that these kind of daab are often just pressure fit into the handle, without the pitch/resin to glue it in. It makes the blade even more likely to "fly off the handle" as the sword ages and the wood of the handle shrinks. I do have one sword that is simply pressure fit and is clearly a "user," though. It was said to be from Laos, but its hard to tell. In Burma, at least according to Ferrars & Ferrars, the dha blade was pressure fit, rather than pinned, so that it would not vibrate as much, and could be pounded back in when it became loose (this last seems a bit circular in reasoning, since it wouldn't tend to come loose if it were pinned in the first place). This doesn't exclude the use of glue, though. Plus I sometimes question the accuracy of what Ferrars & Ferrars wrote.

In Higham, The Archeology of Mainland Southeast Asia: "Yen has noted that the Canarium and Madhuca [butternut] are exploited by the local Shan for their resins and guns, substances valuable in hafting composite weapons and coating pottery vessels to improve their water retention." P. 53.

24th August 2006, 03:13 PM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,362	PUFF: Thanks so much again for the useful information. Registration marks make sense and the old idea about the slugs is one I had not heard previously. It is interesting that we see these marks on edged weapons other than Darb. I have a small axe/chopper that is probably 100+ years old with similar markings. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=605 Ian http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attach...tid=3259&stc=1 http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attach...tid=3261&stc=1 Last edited by Ian; 24th August 2006 at 03:18 PM. Reason: Added links

26th August 2006, 05:33 AM	#4
wilked aka Khun Deng Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Oahu, Hawaii Posts: 166	Brass Guard One other item of note on your sword and others of the like can be found at the guard. There is a thin brass plate nailed into the stock of the handle and in every version I have seen there is no pitch under that plate securing the blade to handle. I've been told that means it was never made for true fighting as the pitch not only secures the blade but acts almost as a shock absorber. Dan

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24th August 2006, 08:02 AM	#1
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	Bitter melon/cucumber seed 's ovel/elipse shape (bottom-right of the first pic). The name 's interchangable with the turtle mark. The mark was used by both LumPang and Aranyik guilds. The round mark is called Dok Keaw (Orange Jessamine, flower). It 's not found in Aranyik 's product. Mostly related with LumPang guild. Currently, there are hypothesis for marks on the spine. The first one is helping a calculation or strategy note. Another one which 's come from more reliable source is that spine marks are blade registration. The marks can be transfer to a paper or cloth with a piece of charcoal and a copy will be kept by town/city officer. The slug, however, is related with spiritual believe. The most reliable one is that the copper material has a warding power against evil or person's spiritual protection. Some smiths point out the metal keep rust away. But the hypothesis 's less solid sice it 's scientificly not true. Both marks and slugs may serve their purpose in the old time. But in this modern time, although the marks and slugs are traditional preserved, but its real purpose has been forgotten and they are purely used as a decoration.

24th August 2006, 09:48 PM	#3
Abravefan11 Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 7	I'd like to thank everyone that contributed to this thread and helped me. You have been a big help and I really appreciate it.

28th August 2006, 02:37 PM	#6
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Pitch would be a vegetable resin used to glue the blade into the handle. What Dan is referring to is that these kind of daab are often just pressure fit into the handle, without the pitch/resin to glue it in. It makes the blade even more likely to "fly off the handle" as the sword ages and the wood of the handle shrinks. I do have one sword that is simply pressure fit and is clearly a "user," though. It was said to be from Laos, but its hard to tell. In Burma, at least according to Ferrars & Ferrars, the dha blade was pressure fit, rather than pinned, so that it would not vibrate as much, and could be pounded back in when it became loose (this last seems a bit circular in reasoning, since it wouldn't tend to come loose if it were pinned in the first place). This doesn't exclude the use of glue, though. Plus I sometimes question the accuracy of what Ferrars & Ferrars wrote. In Higham, The Archeology of Mainland Southeast Asia: "Yen has noted that the Canarium and Madhuca [butternut] are exploited by the local Shan for their resins and guns, substances valuable in hafting composite weapons and coating pottery vessels to improve their water retention." P. 53.