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Author Topic:   Contemporary Thai swords
Ian
Senior Member
posted 11-03-2002 10:51     Click Here to See the Profile for Ian   Click Here to Email Ian     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Please note: The pictures shown here are wider than usual (800 pixels) to display some of the finer details on blades, and will not display completely if your screen resolution is set to 600 x 800 (SVGA) or less. Please let our Web master, Lee, know if this presents a problem.

I have been meaning to write about contemporary swords made in Thailand for some time. There is a profusion of these swords on eBay and elsewhere, often misidentified as Burmese, Vietnamese, Montagnard, Chinese, and sundry other countries -- the most bizarre attribution I have seen was probably "a 17th C cossack sword."

While tourist/replica swords have been made for a long time in Thailand, I think a large number of these swords were produced in the period 1965-1972 and aimed at the GI stationed in SE Asia. Not surprisingly, many of these bring backs appear on the U.S. market. There are similarities in these swords that speak of a common origin in Thailand, even though some may have been purchased in Vietnam or elsewhere.

It is important to be able to identify these visually (because that is all we have on the web), and the flimsy construction of many of these swords is often not apparent from the tiny pictures we have to deal with.

I've organized this discussion into three sections. The first section describes some of the general features of Thai swords. The second provides a few examples of recently made swords that I have picked up over the years; I don't have many, so I will use examples from Therion's web site to fill in some of the gaps -- these are identified correctly as late 20th C. swords and knives on that site (thanks to Hal for letting me use his pictures).

The last section features specific marks on the blades of these swords, and other distinguishing features that aid with their accurate identification.

I know of no good reference for Thai swords and knives. What follows below is based on my personal observations, sporadic trips to Thailand over the last 35 years, and discussions with people who have collected or traded Thai swords there. My knowledge is sketchy and not the product of rigorous research or study. As always, I welcome corrections and comments.

Some illustrations of Thai swords can be found at the following URL (click on "WEAPONS")

http://www.usmta.com/thai-weapons.htm

In a post below, Conogre also mentions the Aranyik offerings of modern interpretations of traditional Thai swords. I'm not plugging them, but from what I have seen the swords appear well made and at the high end of the current tourist market production. Here is the URL to their web site.

http://aranyik.hypermart.net/html/swords.html

1. General comments about Thai swords

Blades

To the best of my knowledge, Thai swords and knives almost always terminate in a pointed tip. There are Thai choppers that have a squared-off end, but these are primarily used as tools (I won't get into the tool versus weapon debate here, but will simply say that blunt ended Thai edged objects are not primarily intended to be weapons -- could be used as such, but not made for that purpose). I have been shown three swords that were definitely Thai in origin that did not end in a sharp point. These were family heirlooms and had either a spear point or, in one case, a katana-like tip. For the purpose of the present discussion of recently made Thai swords, it is not surprising to see them made in the older styles with pointed tips also.

The second feature that appears on many Thai sword blades, and some knives, is a widening of the blade, usually in the distal third of the blade's length. Having reached its maximum width about 3-6 inches from the tip, the blade then narrows such that the terminal sharpened edge quite abruptly approaches the point in a shallow curve (the edge being almost straight in this area in some cases). The swelling of the blade varies considerably, from virtually no change in blade width to a three-fold increase in width. In many cases the maximum width is about 1.5 times the width of the blade at forte. Some similarity has been noted between Thai blades of this form and the Chinese Niuweldao or "Ox tail saber." (Cambodian and Lao swords may also have blades that widen towards the tip, but I use this feature (when present) as one way of helping to distinguish Thai swords from Burmese, which generally do not show much widening of the blade from hilt to tip.)

The back of the blade may be straight or concave; marked curvature, such as seen on a shamshir, is rare. Slightly clipped blades do occur, and this feature can be present also on older swords from Burma, Cambodia, and Laos. Sharpening of the back edge towards the tip is extremely rare in my experience. Some older Thai swords have a peaked spine -- this was not a unique feature of Thai weapons -- but it is not seen on contemporary swords. The spines of older Thai sword blades were sometimes as much as a half inch thick at forte; recently made blades are closer to a quarter inch (or less). Older swords sometimes had silver or brass inlaid lines or "squiggles" running down the spine of the blade. I have not seen similar features on contemporary swords. Recently made Thai swords may have a row of lines incised across the spine or a short inset of brass or copper (see below). Swords dating from the first half of the 20th C (mostly those made after 1920) also had occasional lines incised on the spine, but the inlaid metal decoration seems to have appeared after WWII.

Hilts

Hilts vary widely. Older Thai swords show great variation in the length and styles of hilts. Some of the longest hilts on Asian swords (sometimes with a hilt/blade ratio greater than 1.0) are found on Thai weapons. I believe many Thai swords were intended for two-handed use, or could certainly have been used as such. Some Burmese, Cambodian, and Lao swords also have long hilts, but this feature seems more prominent on Thai weapons.

Guards are an uncommon feature on traditional Thai swords. When present, these are usually plain, small, circular or oval disks. Similar features occur on some Cambodian and Lao swords, and are quite common on Vietnamese dha/dao.

Traditional Thai hilts have a blind tang construction (similar to those of Burma, Cambodia, Laos, Vietnam). While Thai hilts can be very plain and resemble those of neighboring countries, there is a hilt version that is relatively distinctive. This has a circular handle with a metal ferrule that flares out in a bell shape adjacent to the blade, and a pommel that is also metal and terminates in a pointed finial. Brass and silver are the two most common metals found on Thai swords.

More commonly, hilts are wood with small ferrules at either end of the circular handle. The central portion of the hilt is often wrapped with braided strips of rattan, or the wood may be left bare. Carving of the wooden hilts is uncommon and, I believe, largely confined to the hill tribes of the northern areas of Thailand. Some recently made hilts on tourist swords have been turned on a lathe and some are heavily carved. Higher end swords often have substantial silver decoration.

Scabbards

Scabbards are wooden, made in two pieces that are hollowed on the inside to accept the blade. Often the wood is stained or painted black, and older scabbards may be lacquered thickly with a shiny finish. Thin rattan strips, often in pairs, hold the two pieces of wood together. The scabbards of more expensive swords are sometimes covered partly or wholly with thin silver or brass sheet with wire decorations. In the style of the northern hill tribes, there may be a cord wrap near the throat of the scabbard and a baldric for wearing the sword slung over a shoulder or across the chest.

An illustration of how these swords are worn can be found in the archives of the US Center for Military History. The following is a picture from that web site of Kachin Rangers: each man is wearing his traditional dha and has been equiped with a variety of US military small arms (the Kachin are a northern Burmese tribal group, but the style of wearing the sword is the same as northern hill tribes in Thailand). The baldric is worn over the right shoulder and across the chest, but the sword appears in various positions, including high under the left arm, low at the left side, and lying across the chest. Despite their rather rag-tag appearance, the Kachin Rangers were fearsome fighters who helped U.S. and Allied troops halt the Japanese advance in Burma and keep the Burma Road open.


(Published in David W. Hogan, Jr., US Army Special Operations in World War II. CMH Publication 70-42,
Department of the Army, Washington, D.C. 1992)

Here is another picture of a young northern Thai couple, with the man wearing his darb slung over the left shoulder. The sword has a plain, rattan-wrapped grip and scabbard, and no guard on the hilt. This is an old post card from c. 1900.


(Personal collection)


Thai knives

Thai knives are even more variable in their blades, hilts, and materials used. Some of the general comments above apply to a large fraction of Thai knives, but there are many other variants. Rather than trying to describe these in any detail, I suggest that those interested in Thai knives look for examples on the web and try to form your own opinions. It really is hard to generalize.


2. Examples of recent Thai swords

Example 1. Thai sword and knife

The following picture shows a Thai sword and similarly styled knife that are typical of pieces produced since about 1965. These probably date from the 1980s or later. The blades of both show slight flaring in width towards the ends, and after reaching maximum width they have slightly curved cutting edges to the tip.

The hilts are the "plain" variety, with thin brass ferrules at either end and a cylindrical Handle. The grip of the sword is wrapped with many thin strips of plaited rattan. The grip of the knife is wrapped with gray cord. The butt of each handle has a round piece of thin brass sheet secured with a nail.

The wooden scabbards are covered with black gloss paint. The sword scabbard is held together with pairs of plaited rattan strips and has the typical cord wrap and baldric. The scababrd for the knife is bound with strips of thin brass sheet that are held in place by punching small dents into the brass and underlying wood. The latter is usually indicative of cheaper construction than rattan wrapping, and often signals a tourist grade piece.



(Personal collection)


Example 2. Stag horn hilted dha

This one has a similar blade to the sword above but an unusual stag hilt that I have not seen very often on these swords, although similar stag hilts were discussed recently on this Forum in relation to Cambodian knives.

For some time I thought that the handle was a rehilt in the US, but I now think it is almost certainly original and probably derives from the northern tribes of Thailand who have access to a local deer species similar to the one in Cambodia.

The blade on this one is very thin and would make a poor weapon. It was sold to me as a "Vietnamese Officer's Sword." It was a Vietnam era bring back, probably dating from around 1970.



(Personal collection)


Example 3. Thai short sword or knife

Here is an example of a very recently manufactured short sword or large knife. The Thai company (Aranyak) is still making these and larger swords, and they are the high end of the current, readily available tourist/replica Thai swords.

The blades on this manufacturer's swords are said to be made by the "three man hammer" method, but I am unsure what that means. A description of how traditional Thai blades are forged can be found here. Mention is made of three apprentices who help in the initial stages.

http://aranyik.hypermart.net/html/making_methods.html

The handles have been turned on a lathe, and the ferrules are well fitted. The blade shows incised Thai designs that I have not seen on older swords.


(Courtesy of Therion Arms)


Example 4. Thai knife

This one is a common tourist variant and comes in varying lengths. The main features are a heavily carved wooden hilt and scabbard, and a terminal "point" to the sheath. This terminal point is a typical Thai feature, largely seen with contemporary swords made since WWII. I have seen very few similar scabbards made earlier in the 20th C. and none before about 1930.

The blade on these knives/swords is typically thin and of poor quality. This style of knife/sword seldom has any blade marks, and that appears to be the case in this example.



(Courtesy of Therion Arms)


Example 5. Thai short sword or knife

This is another variation of recently made Thai weapons. The blade is of typical shape and appears to lack any markings. The hilt is of the "plain" form, wrapped with thin rattan strips in the traditional manner. It appears to be missing a terminal brass ferrule.

The unusual feature of this knife is its S-shaped alloy guard. This shape is a recent feature on Thai swords, and seems to have appeared only in the last 20 years. The guard seems to be pierced in part; again an atypical feature for Thai weapons. This guard may be mounted upside down because the decorative work usually faces up, towards the hilt, and on this one it faces down towards the blade.



(Courtesy of Therion Arms)


-------------------------------------------------------------------


To accommodate limitations on the number of graphics per posting, the rest of this material is included below (See 3. Marks on recent Thai swords).

[This message has been edited by Ian (edited 03-25-2003).]

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manteris1
Senior Member
posted 11-03-2002 14:04     Click Here to See the Profile for manteris1   Click Here to Email manteris1     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks Ian for taking the time to share this information................jimmy

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Jim McDougall
EEWRS Staff
posted 11-03-2002 14:52     Click Here to See the Profile for Jim McDougall   Click Here to Email Jim McDougall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ian,
Thank you so much for bringing your expertise forward on this . I know I have mentioned before in other posts how little there is published on the dha, and your knowledge and observations will be of immense help to us all.
One of the fine points of this Forum is such specialized expertise, and I feel very proud to be in the company of such shared scholarship as constantly provided by you and all the members here.
Thank you again! Best regards, Jim

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Andrew
EEWRS Staff
posted 11-05-2002 17:44     Click Here to See the Profile for Andrew   Click Here to Email Andrew     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thank you Ian. My not-so-veiled suggestion posted on Frederico's dha thread was directed at you. I truly hope you write more extensively on this subject, and consider publishing. It would be much easier to refer to your writings than to pester you every time I have a question. By the way, any significance to the copper/brass inlay on Thai spines? I have some swords with this, and I'm burning with curiousity.

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Ian
Senior Member
posted 11-05-2002 19:18     Click Here to See the Profile for Ian   Click Here to Email Ian     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Andrew:

The copper/brass inlays on the spine of Thai swords is a relatively recent ornamentation as best I can tell. I first noted this feature on swords dating from the 1960s, or a little earlier perhaps, and have never seen such ornamentation on Thai swords whose manufacture was reliably stated to be before WWII.

Best I can tell, this is an ornamentation that may relate to the site of manufacture or a particular group of craftsmen. Nobody I've talked with has a better explanation. Some fanciful alternative suggestions are that these marks indicate the number of "kills" its owner had committed (like notches on a gun), or that they indicate a higher grade of quality in manufacture. The first is pure fantasy and the second is almost certainly untrue because the same marks occur on swords of definitely inferior quality as well as better made ones.

Ian.

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Ian
Senior Member
posted 11-06-2002 10:16     Click Here to See the Profile for Ian   Click Here to Email Ian     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Continued from the top of this page...


3. Marks on recent Thai swords

Blade marks on recently manufactured Thai swords and knives are common. These fall into several broad categories.

Lines and stacks of "S"-shaped lines: these are skinnier than the usual "S" and perhaps resemble more closely the shape of an integration sign used in calculus (for those of you who can remember back to college math). I believe each of these "S" marks is struck individually and probably after the blade has been forged because there is almost always a slightly raised edge to them that suggests they have been punched into a formed blade. These "S" shapes are by far the most common marks found on Thai blades.

The next most common marks are probably thinly inscribed lines that run the length of the blade and resemble poorly defined fullers. A pair of parallel lines is quite a common mark.

Perhaps less commonly than the "S" shapes and lines, there are a variety of marks struck at forte that look as though they are produced during forging. These might reflect the place of origin, or the mark of a particular blade smith. These marks are usually circular or oval, with various dots or radiating line designs. A rising sun motif is also seen.

Lastly, the spine of recently produced darb have been decorated occasionally with a variety of transverse lines, and sometimes small inlaid pieces of brass or copper. These marks are usually found about 3-4 inches in front of the hilt. The significance of these lines is unknown.


Example 1. Thai sword

The blade markings on this sword are four-fold. The usual lines and stacks of "S" shapes at each end of the blade; a poorly struck oval design at forte; two lines running down the blade; incised lines and an inlaid piece of brass or copper on the spine.

The tang fits poorly to the hilt, as shown in the close up view of the forte. The poorly fitted hilt, the inferior quality materials that make up the hilt, and the contemporary scabbard all point to recent manufacture for the tourist market. The blade appears to be homogeneous steel and I can see no evidence of hardening of the sharpened edge.



(Personal collection)




Example 2. Thai knife

This knife has a line of "S" shapes running the length of the blade and two designs struck at forte. The deeply struck marks at forte are made up of sets of dots each arranged in a circle. There are no marks on the spine or inlay, and no lines on the blade.




(Personal collection)




Example 3. Wooden handled Thai sword

This sword has been modified from its original state. The hilt has a brass ferrule, with a bolt through it just above the guard, and is of full tang construction with the tang peened over the end of the handle. The handle itself is circular and wooden, having been turned on a lathe.

A small, aluminum, oval guard is present, with a washer between the wooden hilt and the guard. The upper surface of the guard is inscribed with a chain design around its perimeter and there are two struck marks (radiating lines in a circle) partly obscured by the handle. The chain is made up of interconnecting "S" shapes similar to those seen on the blade.

The forte shows "S" shapes and an oval struck mark that resembles the shape of the guard. More "S" shapes are present toward the tip of the blade. The spine of the blade shows incised lines and an inlay of brass or copper about 4 inches from the hilt.

This poorly forged blade seems to have been used for martial arts practice and has several deep nicks in the cutting edge. The edge is obviously unhardened. The bolt through the handle may have been inserted to make its use for martial arts safer.


(Personal collection)

The picture below shows the markings on the upper surface of the small oval guard.



(Personal collection)



Example 4. Stag handled Thai sword

The blade markings on this one are confined to "S" shapes at forte and towards the tip, and a curious mark struck at the forte. This mark appears to comprise a conical outline from which lines radiate upwards. I believe the conical outline is probably meant to signify the roof of a Thai temple or similar structure.



(Personal collection)



Example 5. More blade marks

The blade markings on this one are again "S" shapes at forte and a series of 8 radiating lines arranged in a circle. Another variant.



(Formerly in personal collection)


I will continue to add material from time to time to supplement the examples above.

Ian.

[This message has been edited by Ian (edited 11-05-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Ian (edited 11-06-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Ian (edited 11-07-2002).]

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Conogre
Senior Member
posted 11-06-2002 11:13     Click Here to See the Profile for Conogre   Click Here to Email Conogre     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Very impressive Ian....please keep adding, as these pieces have to have the record for the least written about vs most examples of just about any category I've seen.

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justin
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posted 11-06-2002 11:16     Click Here to See the Profile for justin   Click Here to Email justin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Indeed,I too greatly appreciate your efforts to bring light to a relatively over looked group of very fine weapons.Fortunately with your greatly appreciated advice you have prevented me from doing the same thing with dhas that I have done with both keris and sgian duhbs wich is buy cheap over priced tourist pieces,and then get stuck with them becuase I cant resell them.

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VANDOO
Senior Member
posted 11-06-2002 12:10     Click Here to See the Profile for VANDOO   Click Here to Email VANDOO     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
IAN EXCELLENT INFORMATION AND PRESENTATION ON A WEAPON WHERE LITTLE INFORMATION IS AVAILAVLE. PERHAPS YOU CAN MIX IN SOME OF THE MORE COMMON POOR QUALITY DHAS FOR COMPARISON. I HAVE ALWAYS HAD TROUBLE FIGURING OUT WHERE THESE WEAPONS CAME FROM THAILAND, BURMA, VIETNAM, CAMBODIA,LAOS. I THINK SOME OF THE SWORDS THAT WERE SAID TO BE BROUGHT BACK FROM VIETNAM MAY HAVE BEEN AQUIRED IN THAILAND BY SOLDIERS ON LEAVE THERE. SOUVINEER SWORDS COULD ALSO HAVE BEEN MADE IN ONE COUNTRY AND SHIPPED TO OTHERS FOR SALE. THIS MUDDIES THE WATER, IT IS POSTS LIKE IAN'S THAT HELP BRING SOME CLARITY, KUDOS IAN (OR IN DOWN SOUTH LANGUAGE ATTA BOY,WAY TO GO! IAN)

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Ian
Senior Member
posted 11-07-2002 09:37     Click Here to See the Profile for Ian   Click Here to Email Ian     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
VANDOO:

I think you are right. My theory is that these swords were produced in large numbers and targeted to the GIs in and around Vietnam from about 1965 through 1972 and subsequently. As such they were "tourist" pieces designed for the returning warrior. Since that time, the tourist/replica industry has continued with new pieces still appearing and, of course, some of the earlier ones are still circulating. Martial arts enthusiasts may have contributed to the continued viability of this market.

My main reason in posting these thoughts and pictures is to help the collector distinguish what has been made recently (in the last 35+ years) from what is older and more traditional. I find the latter definitely more collectible than recently produced swords. If my comments also help people avoid making an expensive error or otherwise being disappointed, then that is a good outcome too. While collecting swords is fun, and we all must learn from our mistakes at some time, it serves no good purpose for anyone to get conned. And I have seen people who have been deceived by others selling these swords as something they are not. With a little experience, however, they are fairly easily spotted and I hope the brief discussion above makes that even easier.

Ian.

[This message has been edited by Ian (edited 11-07-2002).]

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Conogre
Senior Member
posted 11-07-2002 11:14     Click Here to See the Profile for Conogre   Click Here to Email Conogre     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Actually, I think the Thai tourist dhas were doing well pre-Vietnam, particularly those with the round, heavily carved hilts and scabbards that almost look polynesian, as I've seen those aaleged to be as old as the 30's, but with Bankok as the #1 R&R site, it boomed with a vengeance thereafter.
There's still one dealer (at least) on Ebay pushing samo samo and they are even more inferfior than ever, while there's also a site selling contemporary Tahi dha's that at least appear quite nice....
http://aranyik.hypermart.net/html/swords.html

[This message has been edited by Conogre (edited 11-07-2002).]

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Andrew
EEWRS Staff
posted 11-07-2002 23:53     Click Here to See the Profile for Andrew   Click Here to Email Andrew     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Mike, thank you for posting the Aranyik site: I stumbled across it some time ago, and couldn't find it again. These modern darb, with lathe turned handles are interesting. I believe Hal had one of these on the Therion site. Does anyone have any information as to the quality of these? Are they wall hangers, or well-forged and intended for use?

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Ian
Senior Member
posted 11-08-2002 09:07     Click Here to See the Profile for Ian   Click Here to Email Ian     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have now finished, for the present, posting materials on this thread. As indicated above, I will add new material from time to time as new information or examples come along. I would encourage others to post further examples of these swords/knives.

A big thanks to Lee for putting up the graphics.

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Andrew
EEWRS Staff
posted 11-10-2002 13:15     Click Here to See the Profile for Andrew   Click Here to Email Andrew     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Per Ian's suggestion, below please find some additional contemporary Thai darb.

The top sword was identified as a "Vietnamese Montagnard Chieftan's" sword. I don't believe this is accurate. This is more likely Thai in origin, given the length of the hilt, the small diamond shaped guard, and the blade markings. The pommel is missing, and someone clearly tried to "restore" this sword by glueing the handle on at an awkward angle, and covering everything but the blade with clear laquer.

The center sword is substantially identical to one posted by Ian, above.

The bottom sword is remarkable only for its complete and utter lack of quality. A recent tourist darb.

1

This is the spine from the top sword. The blade is quite thick (3/8") at the forte, with a nice taper to the point. The leading edge is false. Heavy blade, unmarked but for the spine. I suspect this may be pre-WWII, but will defer to Ian.

2

Spine and blade details for the middle sword. Note blade markings and brass spine inlay identical to one of Ian's darb posted above.

3

4

Blade detail with markings for bottom sword.

5

[This message has been edited by Lee Jones (edited 11-10-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Andrew (edited 11-10-2002).]

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Ian
Senior Member
posted 11-12-2002 18:23     Click Here to See the Profile for Ian   Click Here to Email Ian     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The top sword in Andrew's posting is most likely Thai, although possibly Laotian or even Vietnamese. The thickness of the blade and the markings suggest that this is a pre-WWII blade, probably dating from the 1930s. As Andrew indicates, the hilt seems to have been reworked and is probably a replacement.

The other two are more recent Thai swords.

There is one up on eBay at present that shows some further varaitions in decoration on the guard that are similar to the example I posted above.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=734767983

This one is definitely Thai in origin, as you can judge from its similarity to several other swords on this page. The handle, guard, blade and scabbard are all characteristic of Thai manufacture, and the blade marks are typical of recent Thai swords.

And then there is this one to which someone has applied a rather crude and atypical handle:


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=921386663

Ian.

[This message has been edited by Ian (edited 03-25-2003).]

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Conogre
Senior Member
posted 11-12-2002 21:25     Click Here to See the Profile for Conogre   Click Here to Email Conogre     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ahem...someone's been to the fabric store...good job Andrew **grin**.

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Ian
Senior Member
posted 07-05-2004 13:10     Click Here to See the Profile for Ian   Click Here to Email Ian     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I am bringing this one back up to add a comment from Wilked in his thread entitled Conversations with a Dha Maker found here:

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002324.html

"Finally I showed him the two swords I had brought, both of which had the brass insert on the spine and several notches on either side of the insert. They also had the little "S" stamps on the blade. He immediately said they were 30-50 years old and from Lampang (north). He said the notches didn't mean anything that they just put them in as decoration and that both swords were made for the tourist trade. He mentioned that those little "S" are also a give-away as they were just stamped any old place and not even symmetrical. This is when he showed me how to take a file and find out if the swords were hardened - neither were."

We now have a site of manufacture for these swords. Thanks Dan.

Ian.

[This message has been edited by Ian (edited 07-05-2004).]

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