Help with Sword ID

Andrew · 23rd August 2006, 04:33 PM

Puff,

Can you tell us anything about the markings we see on the spines of these swords? Any significance to the brass/copper/silver inset slugs?

Thanks,
Andrew

Mark · 23rd August 2006, 08:37 PM

Yeah, that is the "turtle" mark, sort of poorly struck. Some other examples:

Puff, Dan has reported that Lung Som calls the lower one the "bitter melon seed," but it occured to me that he might have been referring only to the rosettes on either side of the turtle, which I have also seen by themselves. Do you know if the "bitter melon seed" the same as the little turtle, or is it the rosettes? Lung Som said that the mark on the lower blade was used by two collaborating smiths, one from Aranyik and the other from Chiang Mai. which made me think that the turtle represented the Aranyik smith, and the two rosettes, the "bitter melon seeds," represented the Chiang Mai smith.

Abravefan, about the spine, a typical dha/daab is quite thick at the base (as much as a 1/2 inch), and will taper dramatically in the first 1/3 or so of the blade down to about 2/3 or 3/4 of that, then more gradually taper to a very thin width at the tip. The best way I can describe this "double taper" is that if you hold the blade up, spine towards you, it looks sort of like the Eiffel Tower.

One modern technique of making daab is to cut out the shape from sheet steel, and refine the shape by stock removal. This results in a less dramatic, or sometimes very little, distal taper, with the blade being a fairly uniform width and tapering nearer the tip (like swords from many other parts of the world, actually). The dramatic taper of the daab blade moves the point of balance very close to the grip, 2-3 inches or less. If the point of balance of your daab is further out, closer to the middle of the blade, this also indicates less distal taper.

Tim Simmons · 23rd August 2006, 09:21 PM

This is one of the same construction from WW2, the scabbard is rather different. If you are a film buff then you can see the same version is worn by the beautiful Thai lady porters in the film "Bridge over the river Kwai"

PUFF · 24th August 2006, 08:02 AM

Bitter melon/cucumber seed 's ovel/elipse shape (bottom-right of the first pic).
The name 's interchangable with the turtle mark.

The mark was used by both LumPang and Aranyik guilds.

The round mark is called Dok Keaw (Orange Jessamine, flower). It 's not found in Aranyik 's product. Mostly related with LumPang guild.

Currently, there are hypothesis for marks on the spine. The first one is helping a calculation or strategy note. Another one which 's come from more reliable source is that spine marks are blade registration. The marks can be transfer to a paper or cloth with a piece of charcoal and a copy will be kept by town/city officer.

The slug, however, is related with spiritual believe. The most reliable one is that the copper material has a warding power against evil or person's spiritual protection. Some smiths point out the metal keep rust away. But the hypothesis 's less solid sice it 's scientificly not true.

Both marks and slugs may serve their purpose in the old time. But in this modern time, although the marks and slugs are traditional preserved, but its real purpose has been forgotten and they are purely used as a decoration.

Ian · 24th August 2006, 03:13 PM

PUFF:

Thanks so much again for the useful information. Registration marks make sense and the old idea about the slugs is one I had not heard previously. It is interesting that we see these marks on edged weapons other than Darb. I have a small axe/chopper that is probably 100+ years old with similar markings. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=605

Ian

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attach...tid=3259&stc=1
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attach...tid=3261&stc=1

Abravefan11 · 24th August 2006, 09:48 PM

I'd like to thank everyone that contributed to this thread and helped me. You have been a big help and I really appreciate it.

wilked aka Khun Deng · 26th August 2006, 05:33 AM

One other item of note on your sword and others of the like can be found at the guard. There is a thin brass plate nailed into the stock of the handle and in every version I have seen there is no pitch under that plate securing the blade to handle. I've been told that means it was never made for true fighting as the pitch not only secures the blade but acts almost as a shock absorber.

Dan

23rd August 2006, 09:21 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,855	This is one of the same construction from WW2, the scabbard is rather different. If you are a film buff then you can see the same version is worn by the beautiful Thai lady porters in the film "Bridge over the river Kwai" Attached Images

24th August 2006, 03:13 PM	#5
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,398	PUFF: Thanks so much again for the useful information. Registration marks make sense and the old idea about the slugs is one I had not heard previously. It is interesting that we see these marks on edged weapons other than Darb. I have a small axe/chopper that is probably 100+ years old with similar markings. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=605 Ian http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attach...tid=3259&stc=1 http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attach...tid=3261&stc=1 Last edited by Ian; 24th August 2006 at 03:18 PM. Reason: Added links

26th August 2006, 05:33 AM	#7
wilked aka Khun Deng Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Oahu, Hawaii Posts: 166	Brass Guard One other item of note on your sword and others of the like can be found at the guard. There is a thin brass plate nailed into the stock of the handle and in every version I have seen there is no pitch under that plate securing the blade to handle. I've been told that means it was never made for true fighting as the pitch not only secures the blade but acts almost as a shock absorber. Dan

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23rd August 2006, 04:33 PM	#1
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Puff, Can you tell us anything about the markings we see on the spines of these swords? Any significance to the brass/copper/silver inset slugs? Thanks, Andrew

23rd August 2006, 08:37 PM	#2
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Yeah, that is the "turtle" mark, sort of poorly struck. Some other examples: Puff, Dan has reported that Lung Som calls the lower one the "bitter melon seed," but it occured to me that he might have been referring only to the rosettes on either side of the turtle, which I have also seen by themselves. Do you know if the "bitter melon seed" the same as the little turtle, or is it the rosettes? Lung Som said that the mark on the lower blade was used by two collaborating smiths, one from Aranyik and the other from Chiang Mai. which made me think that the turtle represented the Aranyik smith, and the two rosettes, the "bitter melon seeds," represented the Chiang Mai smith. Abravefan, about the spine, a typical dha/daab is quite thick at the base (as much as a 1/2 inch), and will taper dramatically in the first 1/3 or so of the blade down to about 2/3 or 3/4 of that, then more gradually taper to a very thin width at the tip. The best way I can describe this "double taper" is that if you hold the blade up, spine towards you, it looks sort of like the Eiffel Tower. One modern technique of making daab is to cut out the shape from sheet steel, and refine the shape by stock removal. This results in a less dramatic, or sometimes very little, distal taper, with the blade being a fairly uniform width and tapering nearer the tip (like swords from many other parts of the world, actually). The dramatic taper of the daab blade moves the point of balance very close to the grip, 2-3 inches or less. If the point of balance of your daab is further out, closer to the middle of the blade, this also indicates less distal taper.

24th August 2006, 08:02 AM	#4
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	Bitter melon/cucumber seed 's ovel/elipse shape (bottom-right of the first pic). The name 's interchangable with the turtle mark. The mark was used by both LumPang and Aranyik guilds. The round mark is called Dok Keaw (Orange Jessamine, flower). It 's not found in Aranyik 's product. Mostly related with LumPang guild. Currently, there are hypothesis for marks on the spine. The first one is helping a calculation or strategy note. Another one which 's come from more reliable source is that spine marks are blade registration. The marks can be transfer to a paper or cloth with a piece of charcoal and a copy will be kept by town/city officer. The slug, however, is related with spiritual believe. The most reliable one is that the copper material has a warding power against evil or person's spiritual protection. Some smiths point out the metal keep rust away. But the hypothesis 's less solid sice it 's scientificly not true. Both marks and slugs may serve their purpose in the old time. But in this modern time, although the marks and slugs are traditional preserved, but its real purpose has been forgotten and they are purely used as a decoration.

24th August 2006, 09:48 PM	#6
Abravefan11 Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 7	I'd like to thank everyone that contributed to this thread and helped me. You have been a big help and I really appreciate it.