Help with the Moro Kris/Kalis/Sundang

JeffS · 25th November 2024, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

I personally would remove the active rust with lemon juice and leave it in this state

Is this a spot treatment or a soak? How does lemon juice compare to white vinegar? Thanks!

Sajen · 25th November 2024, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeffS

Is this a spot treatment or a soak? How does lemon juice compare to white vinegar? Thanks!

In this case it would be a soak, the effect is the same as when using vinegar. Both liquids are soft acids and will remove the rust but both will leave a grey surface and it's needed to repolish the blade surface.

Regards,
Detlef

Ian · 25th November 2024, 05:17 PM

Hi Jeff, before I comment on your most recent sword post, can you provide the lengths of the blade and hilt, and also how far from the tip the central fuller extends. Also, a quick question. Did you happen to find this one in Singapore or Malaysia?

As far as the pitting at the tip, I agree with Detlef. A mild attempt to remove the active oxidation would be good. However, the pitting is too severe to attempt a restoration of the tip. It's a pity because this looks like a good quality blade otherwise, and it appears to have some significant age. I would encourage you to address any active rust elsewhere on the blade also. The whole blade would benefit from a good clean IMHO, although you would lose some of the patina accumulated over a couple of hundred years. After treating the tip as suggested by Detlef, I would probably give the whole blade a gentle clean with fine grit sandpaper, trying to keep some of the patina while getting rid of any areas of active oxidation elsewhere on the blade. Then I would etch the whole blade with vinegar (this may bring out a pattern, but it will also give the blade a fairly uniformly grey appearance which can "enhance" the patina effect. I would neutralize the acid with a sodium bicarbonate solution, rinse well, and allow it to dry. Then you have the choice of oiling it or coating it with a silicone-based wax used specifically for restoration work. I've found the latter works well.

If you don't like the etch effect then polish the blade back to white, and oil or wax.

Sajen · 25th November 2024, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Hi Jeff, before I comment on your most recent sword post, can you provide the lengths of the blade and hilt, and also how far from the tip the central fuller extends. Also, a quick question. Did you happen to find this one in Singapore or Malaysia?

Hi Ian,

It wasn't Jeff who provided this kris, it was IP.

Regards,
Detlef

Ian · 26th November 2024, 12:07 AM

Hi Detlef,

Thanks! I posted my last comment in the middle of the night (my time) during a period of insomnia.
My apologies IP.

Ian.

Interested Party · 26th November 2024, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Hi Detlef,

Thanks! I posted my last comment in the middle of the night (my time) during a period of insomnia.
My apologies IP.

Ian.

No worries. I am glad your insomnia is more productive than mine. I am sorry that I can't give you dimensions of the last blade. I have been preoccupied with adulting lately and it slipped through my fingers. It was for sale in the US.

I had read the thread you linked earlier but had forgotten where to find the information it contained. Thank you for refreshing my memory.

I really appreciate everyone taking the time to respond to this thread. The concrete examples are really helping me to "see" these objects more clearly. I wanted to create a thread that brough together many of the elements of the Kalis that had been discussed recently into one thread with many examples to give myself and other readers repetition in recognizing features and what slight variations signified. Ian, is the longer gandik you speak of in relation to Malaysian manufacture/influence the same as what Cato called cross over type?

I asked the question on conservation because I had noticed blades of this level of corrosion being gently reshaped before resale, then etched to hide the loss of patination, and I wondered about the ethics of this process.

Ian · 3rd December 2024, 11:52 AM

Hi again IP,

In post #10 of this thread you show a sword that I did not comment on earlier. It is an older style of blade, with the "arrow head" feature. The "elephant trunk" area is also an older style. However, we don't know the length of the blade and the waves are rather flat for an archaic form of kris. The absence of side panels on this medium-sized kakatua pommel suggests an older form from before the mid-19th C. There are examples of these older forms being "updated" with nailed on side panels.

I would conservatively date this one to the first half of the 19th C, perhaps late 18th C.

The dress on the hilt is not typical Moro work because the cross section of the grip appears to be hexagonal (or possibly octagonal) rather than round. Multifaceted hilts are seen on some old Malayan sundang, continuing up to modern times. There is a nice example of such a hilt, shown recently in this thread, on a Malayan sundang in a Melayu scabbard.

25th November 2024, 05:17 PM	#3
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,362	Hi Jeff, before I comment on your most recent sword post, can you provide the lengths of the blade and hilt, and also how far from the tip the central fuller extends. Also, a quick question. Did you happen to find this one in Singapore or Malaysia? As far as the pitting at the tip, I agree with Detlef. A mild attempt to remove the active oxidation would be good. However, the pitting is too severe to attempt a restoration of the tip. It's a pity because this looks like a good quality blade otherwise, and it appears to have some significant age. I would encourage you to address any active rust elsewhere on the blade also. The whole blade would benefit from a good clean IMHO, although you would lose some of the patina accumulated over a couple of hundred years. After treating the tip as suggested by Detlef, I would probably give the whole blade a gentle clean with fine grit sandpaper, trying to keep some of the patina while getting rid of any areas of active oxidation elsewhere on the blade. Then I would etch the whole blade with vinegar (this may bring out a pattern, but it will also give the blade a fairly uniformly grey appearance which can "enhance" the patina effect. I would neutralize the acid with a sodium bicarbonate solution, rinse well, and allow it to dry. Then you have the choice of oiling it or coating it with a silicone-based wax used specifically for restoration work. I've found the latter works well. If you don't like the etch effect then polish the blade back to white, and oil or wax. Last edited by Ian; 25th November 2024 at 05:40 PM. Reason: Added comments on restoration

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26th November 2024, 12:07 AM	#5
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,362	Hi Detlef, Thanks! I posted my last comment in the middle of the night (my time) during a period of insomnia. My apologies IP. Ian.

3rd December 2024, 11:52 AM	#7
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,362	Hi again IP, In post #10 of this thread you show a sword that I did not comment on earlier. It is an older style of blade, with the "arrow head" feature. The "elephant trunk" area is also an older style. However, we don't know the length of the blade and the waves are rather flat for an archaic form of kris. The absence of side panels on this medium-sized kakatua pommel suggests an older form from before the mid-19th C. There are examples of these older forms being "updated" with nailed on side panels. I would conservatively date this one to the first half of the 19th C, perhaps late 18th C. The dress on the hilt is not typical Moro work because the cross section of the grip appears to be hexagonal (or possibly octagonal) rather than round. Multifaceted hilts are seen on some old Malayan sundang, continuing up to modern times. There is a nice example of such a hilt, shown recently in this thread, on a Malayan sundang in a Melayu scabbard.