THE ENGLISH LONG BOW.

[Edward C.]

Were the bodkin points hardened ? As a amateur metal worker I would think that would be key to getting an initial "bite" on plate armor, so it would not skid off on an oblique impact.

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by Edward C.

Were the bodkin points hardened ? As a amateur metalworker I would think that would be key to getting an initial "bite" on plate armor, so it would not skid off on an oblique impact.

Tod mentions in one of his videos that they may have case-hardened them, but found examples have corroded so much that the hardened layer is gone. Some royal orders mention 'Iron' points, probably mild steel, but some mention 'Steel'. Might have been hardened.

He tried mild steel, high carbon steel (heat treated) and case-hardened. Recently, he made a video where they tested various arrows on a full suit of typical period armour. Arrows didn't make it thru the cuirass or helmets with any point types. Armour features did try to deflect any skidders from skidding up into the face areas. Most arrows splintered, tho some splinters went thru eye slits designed to stop arrow points from entering - which would ruin a knight's day. Some arrows DID penetrate thinner arm/leg/mail sections (i.e. Mail bevoirs) or bent joint pieces from impact. He also has made a video on leather covered wooden shields & arrows where the leather was glued on with some sand mixed in that made them much less penetrable.


Good experimental archaeology & worth watching.
(He's also done some on roman Pila, including one that had a pilum penetrate a helmet - an Olympic javelin thrower did the throwing - he reached 77 yards with one if I recall correctly.


One Note: 'Modern' sloped composite tank armour is touted as 'new', it isn't they used it in the hundred years war armour was shaped to deflect arrows, had layered armour (steel backed with mail, and padded gambesons).

[Peter Hudson]

I think this proves the point of greasing the shafts https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56ijR7aPy3U

The penetration was massive on this experiment...end of.

Peter Hudson.

[Peter Hudson]

You are all invited to see the following set of superb Archery by Lars Anderson; a legend in this specialisation...

https://www.google.com/search?q=Long...&ie=UTF-8#ip=1


You will be confronted by rather a lot of Archery Videos on that page but look for those by LARS ANDERSON... Here is a good starter by Lars https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEG-ly9tQGk



Regards, Peter Hudson.

[urbanspaceman]

Almost impossible to believe; thanks Peter, I am suitably impressed.

[werecow]

Originally Posted by Peter Hudson

You are all invited to see the following set of superb Archery by Lars Anderson; a legend in this specialisation...

https://www.google.com/search?q=Long...&ie=UTF-8#ip=1


You will be confronted by rather a lot of Archery Videos on that page but look for those by LARS ANDERSON... Here is a good starter by Lars https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEG-ly9tQGk



Regards, Peter Hudson.

As a habitual contrarian I feel the need to add this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDbqz_07dW4

[Peter Hudson]

I neither agree nor do I disagree with your reply... There are scores of videos on the subject of Archery; either specialised stuff or Archery in general. I enjoy static standard Archery but at the same time its interesting to see some of the trick shooters perform.... Actually what the Archer said in her video was pretty good and I quite enjoyed that as well...
I have just seen a great rendition of Arab Archery on another video presentation and that was also very interesting...
As a weapons system the bow and arrow is quite an amazing piece of kit as in fact, in its most basic form is a deadly weapon comprising two bits of wood and a piece of string...
I hope it fits in well since until gunpowder came along this was the way battles went ...especially in this country.

..however, the reason for posting the Lars Anderson detail was only to inspire people to show interest and even to respond... which I am glad you have done...Thank you for your input.

Regards, Peter Hudson.

[Peter Hudson]

Originally Posted by Edward C.

Were the bodkin points hardened ? As a amateur metal worker I would think that would be key to getting an initial "bite" on plate armor, so it would not skid off on an oblique impact.

Yes they may have done that although it seems that wooden arrows had the habit of snapping since they didnt exactly fly absolutely straight thus on impact were unstable and could break ... Interestingly had the arrows been made of metal they would probably have sailed straight through the armour...Anyway it does seem that greasing the shafts did enable much better penetration of shields and armour not to mention the damage to horses.

Armoured Knights at Agincourt thrown off their horses because they ...the horses ...had been hit by arrows...causing their riders to be ejected into the muddy battlefield would have been in a bad way and likely to have both been either badly injured and possibly trampled by those just behind them. This would have been bad enough had it only affected a few of the cavalry however, scores were dropped which must have caused mayhem and chaoss......The storm of arrows was enough to make the Knights turn their heads away so there was less chance of getting an arrow through their visors...

Regards, Peter Hudson.

[Triarii]

Originally Posted by Peter Hudson

Yes they may have done that although it seems that wooden arrows had the habit of snapping since they didnt exactly fly absolutely straight thus on impact were unstable and could break ... Interestingly had the arrows been made of metal they would probably have sailed straight through the armour...Anyway it does seem that greasing the shafts did enable much better penetration of shields and armour not to mention the damage to horses.

Armoured Knights at Agincourt thrown off their horses because they ...the horses ...had been hit by arrows...causing their riders to be ejected into the muddy battlefield would have been in a bad way and likely to have both been either badly injured and possibly trampled by those just behind them. This would have been bad enough had it only affected a few of the cavalry however, scores were dropped which must have caused mayhem and chaoss......The storm of arrows was enough to make the Knights turn their heads away so there was less chance of getting an arrow through their visors...

Regards, Peter Hudson.

Good point about chaos. Firepower v melee infantry or cavalry discussions usually don't cover the impact on the attackers of the disruption caused by people and horses falling or shying as they are hit. It'd become a significant obstacle, slowing progress very quickly.

[Peter Hudson]

See https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Schola_Gladiatoria

....for some detail on Matt Easton who not only gets very involved in Swords and Armour but other weapons ...Archery is one of his favourites.

Peter Hudson

[Peter Hudson]

English archers are often thought of firing their bows at a high angle but that is not the case . Here they are in direct close quarter battle range using the flat trajectory of their long bows. Note their outfits...since they were also armed like normal soldiers ready to finish off an opponent. See their head dress... armoured helmets some with the visor up some down. It can be seen that with such powerful Longbows the archers have to almost climb into their bows.

Peter Hudson.

[Peter Hudson]

Please see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1dFzFwgrfE which is a superb discussion with Tod and Tobias at the Wallace Collection in London. Actually there are two videos the second is a brilliant talk on some of the best Armour at the Wallace....

The first video considers myths and facts focussed on Agincourt the battle. Towards the end of the Agincourt session mention is given to the use of beeswax being used on arrows. Later in a separate video this method of improving penetration is tested out by Tod on one of his workshops...

Peter Hudson.

[Peter Hudson]

Please see https://uk.video.search.yahoo.com/yh...37&action=view

A video of the artefacts . including English Longbows and arrows recovered from the Mary Rose ...