14th-century samurai sword found in car at Swiss border

A. G. Maisey · 2nd June 2022, 01:18 PM

I thank you for your kind remarks Ariel, no matter how misdirected they might be.

My knowledge is quite concentrated, narrow, of the nature of knowing "more & more about less & less".

I have noted and admired your own extremely broad store of knowledge and have sometimes felt humbled by the depth of your understanding.

If either one of us is better than the other, something I most sincerely doubt, it is you who excel, not I.

gp · 2nd June 2022, 02:11 PM

what suprises me, is that there is no mentioning of any export documents!

Come on...as soon as an item crosses the Swiss border or any non-EU border into the EU or from the EU to a non_EU country, every one knows or should know you need to declare the export/import, unless one willingly tries to break the law...

And no one can say he or she is not aware as since the Brexit ou friends in Albion are terrrrribly hit by this....and so are we when doing bizniz with Albion.

Next to the fact that cusoms worldwide have the knowledge and expertise to value goods, regardless the "invoice" and the value stated.

Regardles what the background of this behaviour is or why, not a very cunning idea I would say ( with courtesy to Baldrick...)

fernando · 2nd June 2022, 03:05 PM

True he (the driver) should know about the Customs submission; but that complicates the story even further. Unless he intended (as instructed by his boss) to pass through with the object hidden somewhere inside the car; and the invoice was found while 'routine' searching and not intentionally shown by him to the Customs people. Still i find more plausible to read in the captured invoice about 'attributed' age and price of the sword an not that a Customs officer has the knowledge to figure out the difference between a regular katana and a high end piece from the XIV century 650.000 € worth ... with the due respect for Customs officials.

gp · 2nd June 2022, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

True he (the driver) should know about the Customs submission; but that complicates the story even further. Unless he intended (as instructed by his boss) to pass through with the object hidden somewhere inside the car; and the invoice was found while 'routine' searching and not intentionally shown by him to the Customs people. Still i find more plausible to read in the captured invoice about 'attributed' age and price of the sword an not that a Customs officer has the knowledge to figure out the difference between a regular katana and a high end piece from the XIV century 650.000 € worth ... with the due respect for Customs officials.

Ofcourse you are correct but the customs systems are set up in such a way that there is a clear process to determine the value.
Within the department’s HQ they have experts in all kind of fields but when it comes down to specific items such as this example, there are in each country qualified and certified specialists or socalled “ sworn/licensed assessors” which are being consulted or used for determination of the actual and real market value of an involved item.

ariel · 2nd June 2022, 07:35 PM

Alan,
I see what might have irritated you. This was just poor phrasing on my part and no sarcasm was intended. Simply I know of no collector/dealer having an experience with six-figure deals. This is a hallmark of reputation and knowledge, and that is why I take my hat off to you.

A. G. Maisey · 2nd June 2022, 11:21 PM

Ariel, I am & I was not in the slightest degree irritated, I was only trying to repay compliment with compliment.

Until we get involved in the upper levels of any market, it can be difficult to come to terms with the values involved, and in the case of keris, we are often dealing with gold, diamonds & other precious materials.

There is about one ons, or 100 grams in a silver Javanese pendok.
A gold pendok the same size will weigh approximately twice this.
Javanese & Balinese gold smiths usually work in 22K gold, not 18K and when we get down to 14K they do not even regard that as gold, it is suasa (swoso).

Today's rate for 22K gold, in Australia, is AUD76.192 per gram

AUD76.192 = US55.35

So, a gold Javanese pendok has a weight of +/- 200grams

US55.35 X 200 = US11070

That's just a Javanese pendok, Balinese pendok are much bigger, now add the gold handle, the diamonds, rubies, emeralds.

We haven't even got to the keris blade, the kinatah, the precious wood or ivory.

We have not yet considered the cost of manufacture, nor have we considered provenance.

Michael German was an English antique arms dealer, in 1967 he published a little booklet that was called "A Guide to Oriental Daggers & Swords", in that booklet he states:-

"--- the fine royal kris which recently fetched the sum of $2940 (one thousand & fifty pounds) at Christies Auction Rooms, and was, in the experience of the writer, the highest price ever realised by an Oriental dagger."

There is a photo of this kris in the booklet.

Over the last 30 years I have seen hilts of the same type that is fitted to this Christies keris, sell at auction for in excess of $50,000 --- that is only the gold hilt I'm talking about, not the complete keris.

The +/-3K for the Christies keris is most certainly just a thing of the past these days, but the fact remains that at the top end of the keris market we do not start to get serious until we're into middling to high 5 figures, and the items with high intrinsic value will nearly always go into 6 figures.

Another fact would also seem to be obvious:- with the value of land in my country, & in many others, as it stands at the present time, dollar figures running into 6 are really not all that impressive when we are thinking in terms of investment.

As I wrote in a previous post, $10 will get you a keris.

However when you get up near the top of the market you might need to take a second mortgage on your house. I actually did this once.

ariel · 3rd June 2022, 12:13 AM

Do you still have the kris you had mentioned in your last paragraph? Seeing it would be exciting.

2nd June 2022, 01:18 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	I thank you for your kind remarks Ariel, no matter how misdirected they might be. My knowledge is quite concentrated, narrow, of the nature of knowing "more & more about less & less". I have noted and admired your own extremely broad store of knowledge and have sometimes felt humbled by the depth of your understanding. If either one of us is better than the other, something I most sincerely doubt, it is you who excel, not I. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 2nd June 2022 at 11:26 PM. Reason: grammar

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2nd June 2022, 02:11 PM	#2
gp Member Join Date: May 2020 Posts: 823	what suprises me, is that there is no mentioning of any export documents! Come on...as soon as an item crosses the Swiss border or any non-EU border into the EU or from the EU to a non_EU country, every one knows or should know you need to declare the export/import, unless one willingly tries to break the law... And no one can say he or she is not aware as since the Brexit ou friends in Albion are terrrrribly hit by this....and so are we when doing bizniz with Albion. Next to the fact that cusoms worldwide have the knowledge and expertise to value goods, regardless the "invoice" and the value stated. Regardles what the background of this behaviour is or why, not a very cunning idea I would say ( with courtesy to Baldrick...)

2nd June 2022, 03:05 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	True he (the driver) should know about the Customs submission; but that complicates the story even further. Unless he intended (as instructed by his boss) to pass through with the object hidden somewhere inside the car; and the invoice was found while 'routine' searching and not intentionally shown by him to the Customs people. Still i find more plausible to read in the captured invoice about 'attributed' age and price of the sword an not that a Customs officer has the knowledge to figure out the difference between a regular katana and a high end piece from the XIV century 650.000 € worth ... with the due respect for Customs officials.

2nd June 2022, 07:35 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Alan, I see what might have irritated you. This was just poor phrasing on my part and no sarcasm was intended. Simply I know of no collector/dealer having an experience with six-figure deals. This is a hallmark of reputation and knowledge, and that is why I take my hat off to you.

2nd June 2022, 11:21 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Ariel, I am & I was not in the slightest degree irritated, I was only trying to repay compliment with compliment. Until we get involved in the upper levels of any market, it can be difficult to come to terms with the values involved, and in the case of keris, we are often dealing with gold, diamonds & other precious materials. There is about one ons, or 100 grams in a silver Javanese pendok. A gold pendok the same size will weigh approximately twice this. Javanese & Balinese gold smiths usually work in 22K gold, not 18K and when we get down to 14K they do not even regard that as gold, it is suasa (swoso). Today's rate for 22K gold, in Australia, is AUD76.192 per gram AUD76.192 = US55.35 So, a gold Javanese pendok has a weight of +/- 200grams US55.35 X 200 = US11070 That's just a Javanese pendok, Balinese pendok are much bigger, now add the gold handle, the diamonds, rubies, emeralds. We haven't even got to the keris blade, the kinatah, the precious wood or ivory. We have not yet considered the cost of manufacture, nor have we considered provenance. Michael German was an English antique arms dealer, in 1967 he published a little booklet that was called "A Guide to Oriental Daggers & Swords", in that booklet he states:- "--- the fine royal kris which recently fetched the sum of $2940 (one thousand & fifty pounds) at Christies Auction Rooms, and was, in the experience of the writer, the highest price ever realised by an Oriental dagger." There is a photo of this kris in the booklet. Over the last 30 years I have seen hilts of the same type that is fitted to this Christies keris, sell at auction for in excess of $50,000 --- that is only the gold hilt I'm talking about, not the complete keris. The +/-3K for the Christies keris is most certainly just a thing of the past these days, but the fact remains that at the top end of the keris market we do not start to get serious until we're into middling to high 5 figures, and the items with high intrinsic value will nearly always go into 6 figures. Another fact would also seem to be obvious:- with the value of land in my country, & in many others, as it stands at the present time, dollar figures running into 6 are really not all that impressive when we are thinking in terms of investment. As I wrote in a previous post, $10 will get you a keris. However when you get up near the top of the market you might need to take a second mortgage on your house. I actually did this once.

3rd June 2022, 12:13 AM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Do you still have the kris you had mentioned in your last paragraph? Seeing it would be exciting.