1822 British Lancer Mameluke

[JT88]

Jim the blade does have traces of gold writing on it, pictured below. The second picture was surely a maker's signature, only a faint piece remains sadly.

Osman is 100% sure it is Ottoman, I trust him on that point he is an expert on Ottoman blades.

As for the velvet, every single mameluke with this style of fittings I can find has velvet on the scabbard.

See Dellar PG 112 fig 12.9/12.10
More examples of similar swords:
https://www.michaeldlong.com/product...l-dress-sword/
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/487936940879693718/

There are many 9th lancer's that look almost the same, hard to differentiate if its the same sword being sold over and over again.
https://bid.antonycribb.com/m/lot-de...F29%3Fpage%3D9

Take note of the fittings on the previous swords and my sword, they're very similar. It's impossible to prove that it is for sure a Lancer's sword but much in the same of "stolen valor" in today's garb I doubt another officer would copy the lancer's style.

A non lancers mameluke with velvet
https://bid.antonycribb.com/m/lot-de...F29%3Fpage%3D9

As for leather I actually don't see many with leather, the vast majority are completely metal sheaths. The lancers generally seem to have velvet, but I still think the fittings point to likely a lancer's sword.

On the auction description Anthony Cribb points to a sword in Dellar pg 109 figure 12.2 as a similar sword. This one also has leather, an early make 1807-10 for an officer of the 22nd light dragoons. It is also entirely possible this is a pre 1822 regulation sword, hence the differences.

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks very much JT, excellent references and well noted. I had missed your mention of the markings in the OP. I had no doubt of Osman's expertise which was well displayed in his entries, but took a devil's advocate approach based on what I know of India associated blades of this form.

It is interesting to see the profound influences this early Mamluk blade form had on European sabers such as Eastern Europe. The influence of Eastern European cavalry on other European armies, thus then to Great Britain by the transition of light dragoon regiments into the flamboyant hussars was of course profound. After the Napoleonic period, the further addition of lancers units followed suit.

So I am supposing that since this is an Ottoman blade, it could not have existed in India, and must have come from someplace else in the Ottoman Empire?
The reason I mentioned the notable duplication of these type blades in the Deccan was that that copying of the Ottoman style would suggest there must have been some presence of these in Mughal courts.

We know, as shown, that the period of 1790s was most innovative in England as LeMarchant sought to form regulation patterns for cavalry swords, which ultimately resulted in the M1796 light cavalry saber. If I recall from research, among the saber blades considered were those of the Indian tulwar.

It seems that apparently Solingen began producing blades of this 'Ottoman' style for British use for officers sabers prior to 1807.
These were used by cutlers, most notably Prosser, who mounted them on officers sabers in the expected variations in that period during the Napoleonic campaigns.

So getting back to this blade of your original post, the question remains, would this Ottoman blade have been mounted in India for a British cavalry officer? Which lancer units were in India.....obviously the 16th (Sikh wars, Aliwal), 5th, and the 21st (which were hussars at 1858 redesignated as lancers 1897).....the 17th in Lucknow. Did other cavalry officers adopt the mameluke hilt outside lancer regiments ?
With the elite hussar status and the administrative confusion of regimental amalgamations, it would be surprising if not.

Clearly this is not a civilian example, unless a diplomatic gift or presentation in which case, sometimes trophy or heirloom blades were used for their significance.

I am sure you have Robson (1975) and its revision (1996), but beyond that, the best resource for information of the kind you are seeking would be :Classic Arms & Militaria" magazine in England. The corpus of material on British sword patterns and history is pretty amazing, and reaching them for back issues, index or extracts would be best.

[JT88]

Understood, I think Osman was saying those Indian mounted blades are in fact Ottoman blades on Indian handles, but he can speak more to that.

I'm sure you've read Rivkin A Study of the Eastern Sword incredible book on this subject. Eastern Europe imitated the saber of the East, and I know Le Marchant derived his sword from Austrian Hussar blades, which they themselves copied the Hungarians who copied the Ottomans.

I know that when the British occupied Egypt in the early 1800s they looted a ton of mameluke blades (as did the French) it could've been acquired in that timeframe and likely put together in Britain.

I think we can assume the popularity of mamelukes arising from the completion of the Egyptian campaign in 1801. The French were surely bringing them home, but English troops in the area must've as well. So there is quite a wide range of time this sword could've been produced, if you have an idea when the 1822 regulation pattern went out of style that would be the top end, but they were being made earlier than that by a decade.

I think it can be ruled out from being a civilian sword, this is a fighting blade.

I don't own Robson, need to order it, but a friend did send the relevant pages to me to read.

The wootz sure does look good in those pictures! Need to update my guide, this sword was entirely different in its characteristics bringing the wootz out than the pala I posted earlier.

[O. Baskurt]

Jack wootz has its own characteristic and chemistry also forging methods also heat treat methods effect its character so much. So etching it is really tricky. As you know personally i have many kilics from every period in my possession and almost all had different way to etch
Last kilic i own you withnessed by yourself end 15th century Mamluk kilic made by Mastersmith Misri which is really rare piece and only few in the world and its patterns was really hard comer as well cuz all his blades are like this cuz it is the chemistry. Another 16th century Ottoman kilics i owned i needed to etch them almost all with different etchants 18th 19th century blades i owned i had to etch with totally different and shamshirs were different as well cuz masterssmiths who made them were all different. But surely your blade has really amazing wootz patterns even style of Pattern is different than Indian Tulwars. Indian iron ores are so clean ores and their patterns are more smaller which is good thing actually. Wootz is precious for us nowadays and we want to see patterns so much cuz makes piece more unique and valuable in a way especially if it is watered patterns and big patterns but back in History it wasnt like this people were mirror polishing their blades ( prevent rust cuz they dont have access to tools like we do nowadays ) even at some point seeing patterns were kind of shame and smaller the pattern more quality the steel was.

[Bryce]

Here is another example with a Persian? wootz blade, silver gilt mounts and leather scabbard.
Cheers,
Bryce

[Bryce]

Here is one marked to an officer of the 82nd regiment of foot.
Cheers,
Bryce

[JT88]

Two good examples Bryce, is the first one marked to anyone? It does appear maybe to be a shamshir but Osman would know for sure.

Did either of these have dates? The few examples of leather worked scabbards are claimed to be before the 1822 regulation. All of the swords I've seen after are metal/velvet scabbards.

As for the .. let's call them acanthus leaves, that's what Cribb called them on the scabbard, this design I have solely seen on Lancer's marked blades see Dellar Pg 111-112 fig 12.6-7 12.9-10.

The other assumption we can possibly make is a timeframe, the blades in Dellar post about 1837 become slimmer and I would assume more a dress blade/ceremonial role instead of fighting blade Dellar fig 12.11-16. The same type of transformation the USN officer sword underwent in 1872.

So, a piece of this puzzle I cannot find maybe you can help with is the 1822 dress regulation written in full. Dellar paraphrases it, saying "the 9th, 12th, and 16th Lancer units were prescribed a "mameluke hilted" sword with a plain metal scabbard fr dress wear and a velvet-covered scabbard for full dress."

This adds to the evidence this sword is likely pre-1822 regulation with the leather. Or the leather was replaced, the leather does show a lot of age, so I take back my previous comments saying it could pre-regulation.

[Bryce]

The first one was hall marked but I can't remember what the date was. I think it was in the range 1810-20. The second is dateable by the maker to 1813-17. Just to further emphasize how difficult your task to pin your sword to a particular regiment is, here is a mameluke in my collection marked to a Grenadier officer in the 45th regiment of foot circa 1811/12. It has a steel scabbard, but who is to say it didn't also have a leather scabbard for dress wear? I have seen this same type of hilt on several examples marked to cavalry officers. You are right in that the style of the scabbard bands on your sword are similar to those found on several examples marked to Lancer regiments, but there are also plenty of examples of other swords marked to Lancer regiments, with different styles of scabbard bands and hilts. Also the examples of lancer marked swords with the same scabbard bands as yours that I have seen, also have the same design on the cross guard, which yours doesn't. I am not saying that your sword didn't belong to a Lancer officer, it certainly could have, but it could also have belonged to an officer of any number of other regiments.
Cheers,
Bryce

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

...

We know, as shown, that the period of 1790s was most innovative in England as LeMarchant sought to form regulation patterns for cavalry swords, which ultimately resulted in the M1796 light cavalry saber. If I recall from research, among the saber blades considered were those of the Indian tulwar.

...

And I've heard it came full circle later, when the 1796s were replaced and surplus ones given to the Indian Sepoys. When the English confronted them in the 1857 rebellion, the Brits complained that the Sepoy's swords cut very much better than their own swords. Turned out they were the re-hilted 1796 LC sabres, but the Indians actually sharpened them. The Brits had theirs dulled, if ever sharpened, by contact with the metal scabbards when sheathing and drawing. Brits kept their sabres deliberately dull when not at war to avoid accidentally injuring themselves, and the command to sharpen sabres told them they were about to be deployed at the sharp end ().

[JT88]

Originally Posted by kronckew

And I've heard it came full circle later, when the 1796s were replaced and surplus ones given to the Indian Sepoys. When the English confronted them in the 1857 rebellion, the Brits complained that the Sepoy's swords cut very much better than their own swords. Turned out they were the re-hilted 1796 LC sabres, but the Indians actually sharpened them. The Brits had theirs dulled, if ever sharpened, by contact with the metal scabbards when sheathing and drawing. Brits kept their sabres deliberately dull when not at war to avoid accidentally injuring themselves, and the command to sharpen sabres told them they were about to be deployed at the sharp end ().

Yup, in detail in Swordsmen of the British Empire great book. I have a Rijksmuseum Gill 1796 on the way currently. Along with a Dawes officers, an 1811, and an Austrian hussar, I think I'm spent on the model now

I love these mamelukes though, I'd like to go for some more eventually, especially one with French Egypt campaign provenance.

[Bryce]

G'day Calien,
I am very interested in early British pipe-backs. What more can you tell us about your sword? Who made it and who owned it?
Cheers,
Bryce

[Calien]

Originally Posted by Bryce

G'day Calien,
I am very interested in early British pipe-backs. What more can you tell us about your sword? Who made it and who owned it?
Cheers,
Bryce

oh yeah sure, it was made by T Symmons out of London he was a sword cutler but was only active from 1815-1816. The sword belonged to a Hubert Tiballier, the son of Francois Huber de Tiballiert a French Colonel who was put in charge of taking Haiti back after the slave revolt, he failed and was on route to France to face trial (and probably the guillotine) when the ship was intercepted by the British and he was taken back to London where he professed his undying loyalty to the Bourbons(LOL). Two of his sons ended up joining the war against Napoleon one with the French Hunters on foot and the one that owned this saber with the 60th and then the 35th. The 35th was actually at waterloo (although it didnt see combat) but Hubert was not on the rolls so maybe he joined the 35th after.

[Bryce]

Thanks Calien,
Where did you find the information about Symmons? I have had a bit of a look for him, and have found a merchant and a brass founder, but neither at this address?
Cheers,
Bryce