At last ... a blunderbuss with a bronze barrel

[fernando]

Philip, thanks for enjoying (once more) my fine example of a goat foot lock with an 'armoured' frizzen posted by Udo, as also the molinhas diagrams i have 'stolen' from Daehnhardt's page whom, by the way, told me in his exuberant manner that, he was certain that the manual safety catch you talk about, was the best safety cock system he knew.
(Attached one of such lock examples in one of my finest blunderbusses ... ex-Daehnhardt, by the way)

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[corrado26]

This safety catch is very interesting and certainly unique in the field of flintlock- or percussion firearns but it is certainly not better than a dog catch behind the cock. Both systems have the same effect - stopping the fall of the cock. A stopper in front of the cock was later in use at the Austrian cavalry pistol M 1862 and at the Hessian cavalry pistol M 1822/46. During the flintlock aera thre was a similar system in use with the shooters carbine 1817 of Württemberg
corrado26

[ulfberth]

I am pleasantly surprised with the quality of this blunderbuss and the beautiful decoration, It's a combination you rarely see .
kind regards
Ulfberth

[Fernando K]

Respecto a la llave del trabuco de Fernando, los "calzos" estan situados como en el miguelete clasico, el de media monta abajo y el de disparo mas arriba, aunque debe actuar en la curva inferior de la "patilla".
Lo contrario pasa en la llave del post #2 de Corrado, que por tener una platina del "fecho de molinhas" tiene el calzo de media monta en la parte superior de la platina y actua en la curva interior de la patilla. A su vez, la cazoleta tiene una brida falsa o postiza, que no tiene la llave del trabuco der Fernando. (Parece una transformacion de una llave "fecho de molinhas".
Respecto a todas las llaves de la peninsula iberica o del Mediterraneo, se han influido reciprocamente. Como ejemplo la llave "mixta" del fusil y la pistola militar española, que tiene un apendice en la parte delantera del pie de gato, que oficia de patilla, y que se apooya en los "calzos", y que esta presente en la llave portuguesa "pata de cabra", y en la llave "a la moda de Madrid".

Afectuosamente

[Fernando K]

Regarding Fernando's key to the blunderbuss, the "chocks" are located as in the classic miguelete, the one on the bottom and the one on the top, although it must act on the lower curve of the "pin".
The opposite happens in the key of the post # 2 of Corrado, that for having a plate of the "fecho de molinhas" has the wedge of half mounts in the upper part of the plate and acts in the inner curve of the pin. In turn, the bowl has a false or false flange, which does not have the key to the trabuco der Fernando. (It looks like a transformation of a key "date of molinhas".
Regarding all the keys of the Iberian Peninsula or the Mediterranean, they have been reciprocally influenced. As an example, the "mixed" key of the rifle and the Spanish military pistol, which has an appendix in the front of the foot of the cat, which acts as a pin, and which rests on the "chocks", and which is present in the key. Portuguese "pata de cabra", and in the key "in the fashion of Madrid".

Affectionately

[Fernando K]

Llave mixta

[fernando]

Originally Posted by ulfberth

I am pleasantly surprised with the quality of this blunderbuss and the beautiful decoration, It's a combination you rarely see .
kind regards
Ulfberth

Thank you for the kind words, Dirk .

[Philip]

Originally Posted by corrado26

This safety catch is very interesting and certainly unique in the field of flintlock- or percussion firearns but it is certainly not better than a dog catch behind the cock. Both systems have the same effect - stopping the fall of the cock. A stopper in front of the cock was later in use at the Austrian cavalry pistol M 1862 and at the Hessian cavalry pistol M 1822/46. During the flintlock aera thre was a similar system in use with the shooters carbine 1817 of Württemberg
corrado26

Udo, thanks for posting pics of a similar concept seen on the locks of some military firearms from Germanic states, of which I am much less familiar with than with those of southern Europe. Am I correct in assuming that all the examples in your post also utilize half-cock detents on their tumblers?

It's interesting to speculate why the apparent resurgence of a frontally-acting "brake" or stop at such a late date, at least on a few models of guns, a century or so after the rear-mounted dog catch fell out of general use. What are your ideas on this? If you have personal experience in shooting flint or percussion guns with locks fitted with these external stops, what are your impressions of the functionality and ease-of-use of such devices?

[corrado26]

Originally Posted by Philip

Am I correct in assuming that all the examples in your post also utilize half-cock detents on their tumblers?

It's interesting to speculate why the apparent resurgence of a frontally-acting "brake" or stop at such a late date, at least on a few models of guns, a century or so after the rear-mounted dog catch fell out of general use. What are your ideas on this? If you have personal experience in shooting flint or percussion guns with locks fitted with these external stops, what are your impressions of the functionality and ease-of-use of such devices?

Yes, you are right, they have all a half cock detent on theit tumbler. These safety catches have been nothing than a second safety to prevent self ignition by unexpected movements on horseback

The safety catch at the Hessian and the Austrian pistol have to be activated by hand but fell off by their weight when the cocks were pulled back into the firing position. This devices have been in use only with cavalry arms

[Fernando K]

Fernando, namesake

I do not understand. In post # 1, you can see the foot of the cat at rest, and you can see the pin ready to be mounted on the chock halfway up. Also, it is observed, half covered, the square window in which the firing chock was shown. In post # 15, second photograph, the pin can be seen leaning on its lower curve in a half-high chock (which had remained hidden, covered) and still without being seated in the firing chock, which still remains semi-hidden. So, what is the first little window, the lowest one of all?

A hug

[fernando]

A screw, Fernando ... of a three screws lock .


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[Philip]

Originally Posted by corrado26

The safety catch at the Hessian and the Austrian pistol have to be activated by hand but fell off by their weight when the cocks were pulled back into the firing position.

Thank you, Udo, for alerting me to an interesting point. In looking at your images again I see that these catches have what appear to me a stud to help the fingers engage the device, and they are in general of a sufficient shape and mass which allow gravity to disengage them while the weapon is being fully cocked. So, a semi-automatic safety of sorts -- manual activation, but self-disengagement.

In this important respect they differ from the Portuguese version, which is simply a small pivoting "wing" whose edge engages the foot of the cock. Its design does not appear to utilize gravity to disengage during cocking; on the two examples that I have, which are on good-quality Liège-made Portuguese locks in unused condition, the action of these devices is quite stiff due to tight manufacturing tolerances. If the pivot becomes sufficiently loose through normal use and wear, the brake could conceivably swing away during cocking if the muzzle of the gun were pointed downward during the process, but to me this would be a chancy and clumsy procedure.

(for convenience I attach an image again below)

The design seen on your Hessian and Austrian locks appears to be a lot more sophisticated than either the Portuguese brake or the early dog locks, and I can now understand the rationale behind the revival of the concept, at least for some cavalry weapons.

[Fernando K]

Dear Fernando

Glup.............................................. .........

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Fernando K

Dear Fernando

Glup.............................................. .........

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[rickystl]

Hi Fernando

WOW!! CONGRATULATIONS !! What a wonderful piece. That has to be one of the most interesting blunderbuss I have ever seen. Talk about a hybrid ! LOL
I too have never seen even a typical Spanish miquelet lock - much less a Portuguese lock - with a brass lock plate. You usually only see a brass lock plate on higher end English/other European guns. But the detailed quality of this piece certainly qualifies in that category. The carving and engraving are wonderful.
As you note, the English style butt stock and plate are very unusual for a shoulder arm coming from this Region. Also, as you note, the slight cast-off of the butt stock, usually reserved for longer barrel fowlers/rifles to assist the shooter while pointing/aiming. But I can't imagine the cast-off being an advantage for a blunderbuss. Hmmmm.
Another thing I notice is the trigger itself. While obviously functional, it appears rather plain compared to the rest of the gun.
Anyway, again, congratulations. What a great addition to your collection.

Rick

[Philip]

Originally Posted by fernando

... Daehnhardt, by the way, told me in his exuberant manner that, he was certain that the manual safety catch you talk about, was the best safety cock system he knew.
(Attached one of such lock examples in one of my finest blunderbusses ... ex-Daehnhardt, by the way)

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Nando, thanks for the pic of your additional example, it certainly is a fine one!

I've also believed that Daehhardt's enthusiasm for the "Portuguese brake" is rather exuberant, perhaps tinged with a lot of national pride. My tendency is to agree with our friend Udo, who says in his post that it doesn't seem to be better than the dog catch used elsewhere in Europe. If an advantage can be assigned to both, it's that they secure the cock by a means that is totally independent of the sear linkage, and thus could not possibly be deactivated by the trigger in the case of a worn or defective mechanism.

From the standpoint of the shooter's convenience and ease of operation, the half-cock detents of the Spanish-style patilla and the French flintlock are superior in that they can be engaged no matter what angle the barrel is held at, and in a one-hand operation. Although both locks have entirely different sear systems, the heart of the half-cock position is having a sear engage a notch so deep as to prevent disengagement by the leverage exerted via the trigger. (miquelets have two separate sear noses, true flintlocks and their successors only one). In both cases, half-cock is also overriden automatically when the gun is discharged from full cock. The fact that on a well-made lock in good condition, these systems are quite secure is evident in their continued use on locks into the percussion and even as late as the early breechloading periods as long as guns were detonated with an external flint or by a hammer striking a cap or primer or firing pin. From the first half of the 17th cent. until over 2 centuries later, this is a considerable span of time for a relatively simple concept to remain current.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Philip

...I've also believed that Daehhardt's enthusiasm for the "Portuguese brake" is rather exuberant, perhaps tinged with a lot of national pride. My tendency is to agree with our friend Udo, who says in his post that it doesn't seem to be better than the dog catch used elsewhere in Europe...

Yes, my mentioning his exuberant mode was a way to imply that a spiced statement was to be considered.
Obviously the concept of best, besides being passive of a determined context, is limited to how wide is your information to cover everything of the kind and, even so, your claim that something is the best ... is in the least subjective.
I have an old dog lock blunderbuss. Checking on its mechanism and reading opinions out there i came HERE. (read as from post #29) and rehearsed a little brainstorm where the dog lock system was not denied to (also) have its Achilles' heel.

[fernando]

Fernando tocayo, if i well understand your words, i would say that the system in my both locks works in the same half cock manner. Only that in my present example the foot (pie de gato) is a bit bent out and does not catch the full cock 'calço'. It will have to bent it back, either with a cold or a hot operation.


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