The EARLY MAKERS TRADE MARKS thread... lost and partly restored.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 03:47 PM

Old 20th March 2014, 04:54 AM #259

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Thank you so much for posting this, its great to see this venerable thread revived. This is indeed an interesting grouping and inscription on this blade.
Michael, thank you so much for coming in on this!! and for the excellent input on these Swiss mercenary forces which were so prevalent in European armies. This perfectly explains this slogan VIVAT HOLLANDIA .

Actually most blades for the Dutch, and for Swiss forces in these times were typically produced in Solingen, though in many cases there were German smiths working in the Netherlands. I have not been aware of any working in Switzerland.
Solingen in the 18th century was producing numbers of blades for various European countries and there were variations with the 'Vivat' motto.
Others were 'Vivat Pandur' usually on various hangers and hunting weapons including plug bayonets; also 'Vivat Hussar' on military sabres with military motif and panoplies. Many of these were destined for Austria, Hungary and other centers in Europe.

The majuscule IK with the numeral 4 above is most likely a makers initials, and the 4 atop is in similar configuration as this number above the heart on EIC balemark as well as many makers and printers logos using initials topped by the 4. This number is considered talismanic (for the magical/astrological symbol for Jupiter) and was used in the same fashion as the cross and orb so often seen on arms.

In Bezdek (p.142) a mark with large block initials D over K with the 4 above them was used by Dries Klein in Solingen 1610-30. These makers marks and initials were often passed down or sold, but the configurations and use of key symbols (such as the 4) were often adopted in variation. I would say that this Solingen maker (as yet unidentified) probably used this tradition in marking the blade. The doves were a favored Christian symbol sometimes seen on Hungarian blades with magic or talismanic symbols, and used in other similar motif.

Interesting to see these blades occurring in number, and I hope we might see other examples and especially what type blades they are on.
All best regards,
JIm
.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 03:48 PM

Old 20th March 2014, 07:03 AM #260

Posted by:
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman,
on the border with the UAE

Originally Posted by Matchlock
Hi Ibrahiim,
Though this is not my field, I hope I can clarify your query.

There is a recent book in German by Jürg Meier: Vivat Hollandia - zur Geschichte der Schweizer in holländischen Diensten 1740-1795. Griffwaffen und Uniformen. 2008.

The author describes the use of both edged weapons and uniforms of Swiss soldiers serving for the Netherlands. Thus your sword with that inscription dedicated to the Netherlands must be of Swiss make between 1740 and 1795.
The #4 and combined sign both stand for the respective unit; for an identification of the latter I am certain we do have some experts.

Best,
Michael (Quote)

Salaams Michael ~ Thank you for your great reply.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 03:48 PM

#261

Posted by:
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salaams Jim and thank you very much for your reply... I shall try to expand on the blade details...
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
-

fernando · 19th October 2017, 03:49 PM

Old 19th April 2015, 03:55 PM #262

Posred by:
Jens Nordlunde
Member

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Europe

I know it is seldom you see an Indian sword here, but this is to show how marks were copied.
The gauntlet is made of wootz, and the blade is very flexible, but it is Indian made.

(missing attachments)
.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 03:49 PM

Old 19th April 2015, 04:26 PM #263

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde
I know it is seldom you see an Indian sword here, but this is to show how marks were copied.
The gauntlet is made of wootz, and the blade is very flexible, but it is Indian made. (Quote)

Outstanding Jens!!! This is a perfect example of how ethnographic arms and European are often inexorably linked, through trade or otherwise acquired blades and the adoption of European stamps, marks, and inscriptions used by native artisans in their interpretations.
While many of these markings are trade or guild oriented in Europe, and many are either magical, religious or talismanic in their application there, these were often transmuted into folk religious, talismanic or other symbolism in local native parlances.

Better understanding of these markings in their respective cultural spheres often give us perspective on interaction and influences as far as dates, periods etc often help us establish details in identification of ethnographic examples.

Thank you so much Jens, good to see this thread again!!

All the best,
Jim
.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 03:49 PM

Old 21st April 2015, 08:47 AM #264

Posted by:
ulfberth
Member

Join Date: Jul 2014

An intriguing medieval sword in the British Museum of London around 1300.
The symbols on the blade are of gold inlay and remain a mystery so far....

(missing attachments)
,

fernando · 19th October 2017, 03:50 PM

Old 15th May 2015, 02:21 PM #265

Posted by:
dana_w
Member

Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Southeast Florida, USA

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
Thank you for the note on the marking we were discussing Fernando.....the ANCHOR! That would make sense, and the flayed arms on the base does correspond to the shape of anchors in a sense. Since there is a relation to these and merchant marks used often used by traders, it adds to the plausibility of the term. I was incorrect in my comment on this not appearing on blades considered associated with Ayala, in retrospect it seems I do recall seeing something like that on the JESUS MARIA blade I mentioned. The blade had been recovered from a shipwreck in a large grouping of blades that were apparantly being sent to Spain's colonies, and was in pretty rough condition. In close up's I do recall seeing the mark though. (Quote)

Jim, this recent article in National Geographic has me looking for the posts where you mention blades from shipwrecks off the coast of Panama.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/...an-archaeology/

"The cargo ship went down in 1681 with crates of swords, nails, and bolts of cloth."
.

19th October 2017, 03:47 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 20th March 2014, 04:54 AM #259 Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Thank you so much for posting this, its great to see this venerable thread revived. This is indeed an interesting grouping and inscription on this blade. Michael, thank you so much for coming in on this!! and for the excellent input on these Swiss mercenary forces which were so prevalent in European armies. This perfectly explains this slogan VIVAT HOLLANDIA . Actually most blades for the Dutch, and for Swiss forces in these times were typically produced in Solingen, though in many cases there were German smiths working in the Netherlands. I have not been aware of any working in Switzerland. Solingen in the 18th century was producing numbers of blades for various European countries and there were variations with the 'Vivat' motto. Others were 'Vivat Pandur' usually on various hangers and hunting weapons including plug bayonets; also 'Vivat Hussar' on military sabres with military motif and panoplies. Many of these were destined for Austria, Hungary and other centers in Europe. The majuscule IK with the numeral 4 above is most likely a makers initials, and the 4 atop is in similar configuration as this number above the heart on EIC balemark as well as many makers and printers logos using initials topped by the 4. This number is considered talismanic (for the magical/astrological symbol for Jupiter) and was used in the same fashion as the cross and orb so often seen on arms. In Bezdek (p.142) a mark with large block initials D over K with the 4 above them was used by Dries Klein in Solingen 1610-30. These makers marks and initials were often passed down or sold, but the configurations and use of key symbols (such as the 4) were often adopted in variation. I would say that this Solingen maker (as yet unidentified) probably used this tradition in marking the blade. The doves were a favored Christian symbol sometimes seen on Hungarian blades with magic or talismanic symbols, and used in other similar motif. Interesting to see these blades occurring in number, and I hope we might see other examples and especially what type blades they are on. All best regards, JIm . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 04:15 PM.

19th October 2017, 03:48 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	#261 Posted by: Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Salaams Jim and thank you very much for your reply... I shall try to expand on the blade details... Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. - Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 04:19 PM.

19th October 2017, 03:49 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 19th April 2015, 04:26 PM #263 Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde I know it is seldom you see an Indian sword here, but this is to show how marks were copied. The gauntlet is made of wootz, and the blade is very flexible, but it is Indian made. (Quote) Outstanding Jens!!! This is a perfect example of how ethnographic arms and European are often inexorably linked, through trade or otherwise acquired blades and the adoption of European stamps, marks, and inscriptions used by native artisans in their interpretations. While many of these markings are trade or guild oriented in Europe, and many are either magical, religious or talismanic in their application there, these were often transmuted into folk religious, talismanic or other symbolism in local native parlances. Better understanding of these markings in their respective cultural spheres often give us perspective on interaction and influences as far as dates, periods etc often help us establish details in identification of ethnographic examples. Thank you so much Jens, good to see this thread again!! All the best, Jim . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 04:21 PM.

19th October 2017, 03:49 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 21st April 2015, 08:47 AM #264 Posted by: ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 An intriguing medieval sword in the British Museum of London around 1300. The symbols on the blade are of gold inlay and remain a mystery so far.... (missing attachments) , Last edited by fernando; 21st October 2017 at 06:27 PM.

19th October 2017, 03:50 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 15th May 2015, 02:21 PM #265 Posted by: dana_w Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Southeast Florida, USA Originally Posted by Jim McDougall Thank you for the note on the marking we were discussing Fernando.....the ANCHOR! That would make sense, and the flayed arms on the base does correspond to the shape of anchors in a sense. Since there is a relation to these and merchant marks used often used by traders, it adds to the plausibility of the term. I was incorrect in my comment on this not appearing on blades considered associated with Ayala, in retrospect it seems I do recall seeing something like that on the JESUS MARIA blade I mentioned. The blade had been recovered from a shipwreck in a large grouping of blades that were apparantly being sent to Spain's colonies, and was in pretty rough condition. In close up's I do recall seeing the mark though. (Quote) Jim, this recent article in National Geographic has me looking for the posts where you mention blades from shipwrecks off the coast of Panama. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/...an-archaeology/ "The cargo ship went down in 1681 with crates of swords, nails, and bolts of cloth." . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 04:23 PM.

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