The EARLY MAKERS TRADE MARKS thread... lost and partly restored.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 03:41 PM

Old 29th June 2012, 09:05 PM #247

Posted by:
Matchlock
(deceased)

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking

In some instances, 16th c. artists were astoundingly exact in their depictions, including the representation of characteristic blade marks.

Attached please find a depiction of a cross-and-orb mark, together with a wavy serpent ornament, on the blade of a ca. 1540's Landsknecht saber, in a painting by Lucas Cranach the Younger, dated 1584, preserved in the Germanisches Nationalmuseum Nuremberg.

Author's photos, 1995.
Please see also

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...1713#post141713

Best,
Michael

(missing attachments)
.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 03:42 PM

Old 2nd November 2012, 03:26 PM #248
Posted by:
theswordcollector
Member
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Berlin

Originally Posted by Jeff D
Hi Jim,

How about the Solingen Cross and orb and the variations of it? I have a couple in storage to show as well as this kaskara with a Peter Kull mark that had red gold added.

Jeff (Quote)

I have the same orb and Solingen cross with rose gold on my schiavone blade
with a running wolf with reminance of rose gold inlay also is this the same smith? I thought it might be copper or rose gold. I might give it a drop of nitric acid to find out.

(missing attachments)
.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 03:42 PM

Old 4th November 2012, 03:20 PM #249

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

The cross and orb was an invocational and often seemingly talismanic device which seems to have derived from Southern Germany centers (according to important observations made by Michael in earlier posts). These would have included Passau, which is also presumably the origin for the running wolf, and again, with Michaels key observations these cross and orb are found quite consistantly on 16th century blades.

It is interesting that these marks are on a schiavona, and it would be most helpful to see the profile of the entire blade as these paired markings on opposed sides of blade also are known to be found on some kaskara blades in the Sudan. As many of these blades entered Africa through Meditteranean entrepots it is conceivable that the same blades found on many early European swords may have includede these markings. This becomes even more plausible with the red hued latten inlay which is seen on a number of blade markings (Jeff Demetrick posted one) and the native penchant for copying these markings.

Please may we see the entire sword and blade profile?

In answer to your question, most of these kinds of markings occur in varying degree and form, and though some makers may have had certain affinities or preferences, they are not known to be confined to any maker or workshop specifically unless with accompanying mark of note. Wagner (1967) considers the cross and orb to typically signify terminus of an inscription, name or phrase in blade motif, while as noted, these became used singularly apparantly as talismanic or devotional devices alluding perhaps to some of these.
,

fernando · 19th October 2017, 03:42 PM

Old 26th November 2012, 04:19 PM #250

Posted by:
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
The cross and orb was an invocational and often seemingly talismanic device which seems to have derived from Southern Germany centers (according to important observations made by Michael in earlier posts). These would have included Passau, which is also presumably the origin for the running wolf, and again, with Michaels key observations these cross and orb are found quite consistantly on 16th century blades.

It is interesting that these marks are on a schiavona, and it would be most helpful to see the profile of the entire blade as these paired markings on opposed sides of blade also are known to be found on some kaskara blades in the Sudan. As many of these blades entered Africa through Meditteranean entrepots it is conceivable that the same blades found on many early European swords may have includede these markings. This becomes even more plausible with the red hued latten inlay which is seen on a number of blade markings (Jeff Demetrick posted one) and the native penchant for copying these markings.

Please may we see the entire sword and blade profile?

In answer to your question, most of these kinds of markings occur in varying degree and form, and though some makers may have had certain affinities or preferences, they are not known to be confined to any maker or workshop specifically unless with accompanying mark of note. Wagner (1967) considers the cross and orb to typically signify terminus of an inscription, name or phrase in blade motif, while as noted, these became used singularly apparantly as talismanic or devotional devices alluding perhaps to some of these. (Quote)

Salaams Jim ~ This is indeed a very interesting subject and we are all waiting to see the entire sword please "theswordcollector" if you can publish a picture ... ? I see a lot of fake marked passau wolf and moons etc etc though I suspect some drift into Red Sea areas of German Broadswords and dare I say it, late Constantinople swords, I have no proof except a strange similarity in some Saudia blades that look mildly Mamluke..

My real question is; Are Schiavona(the double edged variety) linked to Red Sea variants?

It would be good to see a full blade please.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 03:43 PM

Old 26th November 2012, 06:18 PM #251

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Hi Ibrahiim,
In current research passim, I am finding more evidence that schiavona 'type' blades are seemingly more present in 'Red Sea' regions, most notably in those entering Egypt, Ethiopia and the Sudan. Examples of schiavona broadsword blades of c. 1780s-90s with some having five fullers seem to directly have influenced variants of native made broadsword blades termed 'Suleyman' known to be made into the 1960s.
The Mamluks were within the Ottoman suzerainty in these times, and as extremely conservative in styles and traditions still had thier traditional broadswords in these regions in Egypt and northern Sudan in certain degree. While renowned for their famed sabres, in traditional parlance the broadswords remained in place somewhat commemoratively. These influenced in my opinion the development of the kaskara broadswords in corroboration with these sword forms long in use in the Sahara. Many of the blades entering ports off the Red Sea such as Suakin in particular, received not only German blades but Italian. I have seen instances early in the 18th century where these German and Italian blades entered India via East India Company ships, where these in turn entered Malabar trade routes which often led to the Red Sea via Arab dhows.
Ottoman (Constantinople), Caucasian, Arabian, German, Italian and Spanish blades all would have been present in these trade routes via various circumstances whether dominion, trade or geopolitical situations in different times. One in these trade spheres they often remained in use for many generations and many refittings.

All the best,
Jim
.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 03:43 PM

#252

Posted by:
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman,
on the border with the UAE

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
Hi Ibrahiim,
In current research passim, I am finding more evidence that schiavona 'type' blades are seemingly more present in 'Red Sea' regions, most notably in those entering Egypt, Ethiopia and the Sudan. Examples of schiavona broadsword blades of c. 1780s-90s with some having five fullers seem to directly have influenced variants of native made broadsword blades termed 'Suleyman' known to be made into the 1960s.
The Mamluks were within the Ottoman suzerainty in these times, and as extremely conservative in styles and traditions still had thier traditional broadswords in these regions in Egypt and northern Sudan in certain degree. While renowned for their famed sabres, in traditional parlance the broadswords remained in place somewhat commemoratively. These influenced in my opinion the development of the kaskara broadswords in corroboration with these sword forms long in use in the Sahara. Many of the blades entering ports off the Red Sea such as Suakin in particular, received not only German blades but Italian. I have seen instances early in the 18th century where these German and Italian blades entered India via East India Company ships, where these in turn entered Malabar trade routes which often led to the Red Sea via Arab dhows.
Ottoman (Constantinople), Caucasian, Arabian, German, Italian and Spanish blades all would have been present in these trade routes via various circumstances whether dominion, trade or geopolitical situations in different times. One in these trade spheres they often remained in use for many generations and many refittings.

All the best,
Jim (Quote)

Salaams Jim ~ Thanks for your reply and it is further interesting that the Mamlukes were taken over by the Ottomans because of the Red Sea;
The Mamluki palace coffers were filled with booty, riches and gold from the throughput trade to the rest of Europe from China via the Mamluke Empire, thus, the importance of the Red Sea hub in the days before the Ottomans (Othmanli) struck. It was in fact the Portuguese on entering the Indian Ocean who closed the Red Sea to Chinese trade. Once that had been achieved the Mamluke Sultanate simply went bust. Since its army was essentially 100% mercenary (Mamluke essentially means mercenary/slave) the general collapse was fast. It was then that the Ottomans went for it. (I reccommend the amazing work on the Mamlukes by John Glubb Pasha).
Back to earth ~ The remarkable pictures posted by VANDOO at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14049 and others shows the extent to which these Red Sea weapons blades equate.. though this may only be coincidental...and in terms of the double edged Shiavona blades the resemblence is very close. What I mean is in comparison to the straight blades at #1 second picture http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...LACE+COLLECTION

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 03:44 PM

#253

Posted by:
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Jim, I have just entered a reply on http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...2118#post152118 which is a fascinating thread By Jean-Marc S encompassing the little known world of Heraldry and Coats of Arms.(or perhaps the well known by a few). I suggested on that thread that it would be an excellent idea to persue that along the same lines that you have done with this vital informational encyclopedia on blade marks and include this note for your information...and by way of moderator support request this as a Forum idea.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
.

19th October 2017, 03:42 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 4th November 2012, 03:20 PM #249 Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 The cross and orb was an invocational and often seemingly talismanic device which seems to have derived from Southern Germany centers (according to important observations made by Michael in earlier posts). These would have included Passau, which is also presumably the origin for the running wolf, and again, with Michaels key observations these cross and orb are found quite consistantly on 16th century blades. It is interesting that these marks are on a schiavona, and it would be most helpful to see the profile of the entire blade as these paired markings on opposed sides of blade also are known to be found on some kaskara blades in the Sudan. As many of these blades entered Africa through Meditteranean entrepots it is conceivable that the same blades found on many early European swords may have includede these markings. This becomes even more plausible with the red hued latten inlay which is seen on a number of blade markings (Jeff Demetrick posted one) and the native penchant for copying these markings. Please may we see the entire sword and blade profile? In answer to your question, most of these kinds of markings occur in varying degree and form, and though some makers may have had certain affinities or preferences, they are not known to be confined to any maker or workshop specifically unless with accompanying mark of note. Wagner (1967) considers the cross and orb to typically signify terminus of an inscription, name or phrase in blade motif, while as noted, these became used singularly apparantly as talismanic or devotional devices alluding perhaps to some of these. , Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 04:00 PM.

19th October 2017, 03:42 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 26th November 2012, 04:19 PM #250 Posted by: Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Originally Posted by Jim McDougall The cross and orb was an invocational and often seemingly talismanic device which seems to have derived from Southern Germany centers (according to important observations made by Michael in earlier posts). These would have included Passau, which is also presumably the origin for the running wolf, and again, with Michaels key observations these cross and orb are found quite consistantly on 16th century blades. It is interesting that these marks are on a schiavona, and it would be most helpful to see the profile of the entire blade as these paired markings on opposed sides of blade also are known to be found on some kaskara blades in the Sudan. As many of these blades entered Africa through Meditteranean entrepots it is conceivable that the same blades found on many early European swords may have includede these markings. This becomes even more plausible with the red hued latten inlay which is seen on a number of blade markings (Jeff Demetrick posted one) and the native penchant for copying these markings. Please may we see the entire sword and blade profile? In answer to your question, most of these kinds of markings occur in varying degree and form, and though some makers may have had certain affinities or preferences, they are not known to be confined to any maker or workshop specifically unless with accompanying mark of note. Wagner (1967) considers the cross and orb to typically signify terminus of an inscription, name or phrase in blade motif, while as noted, these became used singularly apparantly as talismanic or devotional devices alluding perhaps to some of these. (Quote) Salaams Jim ~ This is indeed a very interesting subject and we are all waiting to see the entire sword please "theswordcollector" if you can publish a picture ... ? I see a lot of fake marked passau wolf and moons etc etc though I suspect some drift into Red Sea areas of German Broadswords and dare I say it, late Constantinople swords, I have no proof except a strange similarity in some Saudia blades that look mildly Mamluke.. My real question is; Are Schiavona(the double edged variety) linked to Red Sea variants? It would be good to see a full blade please. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 04:01 PM.

19th October 2017, 03:43 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 26th November 2012, 06:18 PM #251 Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Hi Ibrahiim, In current research passim, I am finding more evidence that schiavona 'type' blades are seemingly more present in 'Red Sea' regions, most notably in those entering Egypt, Ethiopia and the Sudan. Examples of schiavona broadsword blades of c. 1780s-90s with some having five fullers seem to directly have influenced variants of native made broadsword blades termed 'Suleyman' known to be made into the 1960s. The Mamluks were within the Ottoman suzerainty in these times, and as extremely conservative in styles and traditions still had thier traditional broadswords in these regions in Egypt and northern Sudan in certain degree. While renowned for their famed sabres, in traditional parlance the broadswords remained in place somewhat commemoratively. These influenced in my opinion the development of the kaskara broadswords in corroboration with these sword forms long in use in the Sahara. Many of the blades entering ports off the Red Sea such as Suakin in particular, received not only German blades but Italian. I have seen instances early in the 18th century where these German and Italian blades entered India via East India Company ships, where these in turn entered Malabar trade routes which often led to the Red Sea via Arab dhows. Ottoman (Constantinople), Caucasian, Arabian, German, Italian and Spanish blades all would have been present in these trade routes via various circumstances whether dominion, trade or geopolitical situations in different times. One in these trade spheres they often remained in use for many generations and many refittings. All the best, Jim . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 04:02 PM.

19th October 2017, 03:43 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	#252 Posted by: Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Originally Posted by Jim McDougall Hi Ibrahiim, In current research passim, I am finding more evidence that schiavona 'type' blades are seemingly more present in 'Red Sea' regions, most notably in those entering Egypt, Ethiopia and the Sudan. Examples of schiavona broadsword blades of c. 1780s-90s with some having five fullers seem to directly have influenced variants of native made broadsword blades termed 'Suleyman' known to be made into the 1960s. The Mamluks were within the Ottoman suzerainty in these times, and as extremely conservative in styles and traditions still had thier traditional broadswords in these regions in Egypt and northern Sudan in certain degree. While renowned for their famed sabres, in traditional parlance the broadswords remained in place somewhat commemoratively. These influenced in my opinion the development of the kaskara broadswords in corroboration with these sword forms long in use in the Sahara. Many of the blades entering ports off the Red Sea such as Suakin in particular, received not only German blades but Italian. I have seen instances early in the 18th century where these German and Italian blades entered India via East India Company ships, where these in turn entered Malabar trade routes which often led to the Red Sea via Arab dhows. Ottoman (Constantinople), Caucasian, Arabian, German, Italian and Spanish blades all would have been present in these trade routes via various circumstances whether dominion, trade or geopolitical situations in different times. One in these trade spheres they often remained in use for many generations and many refittings. All the best, Jim (Quote) Salaams Jim ~ Thanks for your reply and it is further interesting that the Mamlukes were taken over by the Ottomans because of the Red Sea; The Mamluki palace coffers were filled with booty, riches and gold from the throughput trade to the rest of Europe from China via the Mamluke Empire, thus, the importance of the Red Sea hub in the days before the Ottomans (Othmanli) struck. It was in fact the Portuguese on entering the Indian Ocean who closed the Red Sea to Chinese trade. Once that had been achieved the Mamluke Sultanate simply went bust. Since its army was essentially 100% mercenary (Mamluke essentially means mercenary/slave) the general collapse was fast. It was then that the Ottomans went for it. (I reccommend the amazing work on the Mamlukes by John Glubb Pasha). Back to earth ~ The remarkable pictures posted by VANDOO at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14049 and others shows the extent to which these Red Sea weapons blades equate.. though this may only be coincidental...and in terms of the double edged Shiavona blades the resemblence is very close. What I mean is in comparison to the straight blades at #1 second picture http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...LACE+COLLECTION Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 04:03 PM.

19th October 2017, 03:44 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	#253 Posted by: Ibrahiim al Balooshi Salaams Jim, I have just entered a reply on http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...2118#post152118 which is a fascinating thread By Jean-Marc S encompassing the little known world of Heraldry and Coats of Arms.(or perhaps the well known by a few). I suggested on that thread that it would be an excellent idea to persue that along the same lines that you have done with this vital informational encyclopedia on blade marks and include this note for your information...and by way of moderator support request this as a Forum idea. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 04:08 PM.

19th October 2017, 03:41 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 29th June 2012, 09:05 PM #247 Posted by: Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking In some instances, 16th c. artists were astoundingly exact in their depictions, including the representation of characteristic blade marks. Attached please find a depiction of a cross-and-orb mark, together with a wavy serpent ornament, on the blade of a ca. 1540's Landsknecht saber, in a painting by Lucas Cranach the Younger, dated 1584, preserved in the Germanisches Nationalmuseum Nuremberg. Author's photos, 1995. Please see also http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...1713#post141713 Best, Michael (missing attachments) . Last edited by fernando; 21st October 2017 at 06:24 PM.

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