The EARLY MAKERS TRADE MARKS thread... lost and partly restored.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 02:57 PM

Old 24th November 2011, 01:32 PM #201

Psted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

This is a mark punched in an Italian Bisarma (Roncone) said to be from the XVI century, in discussion here:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...9094#post129094
I wonder whether some of our members is familiar with this mark, apparently a stylized P.
Would be much obliged for any ideas !

.. Maybe someone with Armi Bianche Italiane by Boccia & Coelho ?

.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 02:59 PM

Old 25th November 2011, 05:55 AM #213

Posted by:
TVV
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Bay Area

To add to the thread, I am attaching a photo of a GENOA mark on a blade, hilted with a Sinai/Negev bedouin hilt. Pictures of the entire sword are available here:
http://vikingsword.com/vb/showpost....42&postcount=16
.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 03:02 PM

Old 29th November 2011, 01:43 AM #214

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Originally Posted by fernando
This is a mark punched in an Italian Bisarma (Roncone) said to be from the XVI century, in discussion here:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...9094#post129094
I wonder whether some of our members is familiar with this mark, apparently a stylized P.
Would be much obliged for any ideas !

.. Maybe someone with Armi Bianche Italiane by Boccia & Coelho ? (Quote)

.
Thank you for adding this Fernando and I appreciate its being added here for the benefit of our study of markings. As has been indicated by Michael in the original thread it would seem most likely that this would be from the workshops of Peter Pogl in Thorl, early 16th century. He was armourer for the Emperor Maximilian. In Italy a majescule P surmounted by a crown in known 16th century, very much the period for these gisarmes.
.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 03:03 PM

Old 29th November 2011, 02:00 AM #215

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Originally Posted by TVV
To add to the thread, I am attaching a photo of a GENOA mark on a blade, hilted with a Sinai/Negev bedouin hilt. Pictures of the entire sword are available here:
http://vikingsword.com/vb/showpost....42&postcount=16 (Quote)

Thank you for posting this here Teodor, and I really appreciate having these various examples of markings added to this thread.
The status of the Genoa marking as an indicator of quality on trade blades which travelled widely through many cultures trade networks has been long established. In earlier times the familiar sickle marks (dentated half circles) became associated with Genoa as the origin of the blades bearing them.
This was primarily due to the fact that the name Genoa was often placed between these double arcs...it seems actually the arcs were more of a guild related symbol and blades from a number of North Italian centers carried them. Genoa was primarily the port of departure.

These blades and thier markings profoundly influenced other blade making centers such as Styrian and later becoming the well known 'gurda' markings of blades in the Caucusus. Solingen often used them along with other marks and symbols. These double marked 'Genoa' names are seen on usually East European sabre blades, which often entered Arabian trade routes and were highly favored. In this case, these are clearly native applied on a well worn trade blade, but reflecting the long standing admiration for blades carrying this famed trade center's name.
.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 03:03 PM

Old 30th November 2011, 12:51 AM #216

Posted by:
TVV
Member

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Bay Area

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
Thank you for posting this here Teodor, and I really appreciate having these various examples of markings added to this thread.
The status of the Genoa marking as an indicator of quality on trade blades which travelled widely through many cultures trade networks has been long established. In earlier times the familiar sickle marks (dentated half circles) became associated with Genoa as the origin of the blades bearing them.
This was primarily due to the fact that the name Genoa was often placed between these double arcs...it seems actually the arcs were more of a guild related symbol and blades from a number of North Italian centers carried them. Genoa was primarily the port of departure.

These blades and thier markings profoundly influenced other blade making centers such as Styrian and later becoming the well known 'gurda' markings of blades in the Caucusus. Solingen often used them along with other marks and symbols. These double marked 'Genoa' names are seen on usually East European sabre blades, which often entered Arabian trade routes and were highly favored. In this case, these are clearly native applied on a well worn trade blade, but reflecting the long standing admiration for blades carrying this famed trade center's name. (Quote)

Thank you Jim. The blade as far as I know (since it is not in my possession) does not have any other markings. Could it have been made with no markings initially, if we are to assume that the markings were applied at a later stage, or is it possible that this is a native blade as well, for example from the Caucasus?

Teodor
.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 03:04 PM

Old 30th November 2011, 01:49 AM #217

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Originally Posted by TVV
Thank you Jim. The blade as far as I know (since it is not in my possession) does not have any other markings. Could it have been made with no markings initially, if we are to assume that the markings were applied at a later stage, or is it possible that this is a native blade as well, for example from the Caucasus?

Teodor (Quote)

Hi Teodor,
As far as I know there were numerous blades from Caucasian areas and Solingen issued as blanks and were often marked by vendors, importers etc. in trade centers as received and mounted. The very incongruent arrangement of the lettering suggests of course somewhat inept copying of earlier similarly fullered blades from East Europe with the dual Genoa marks. These blades might have entered at many points into the Red Sea trade sphere, and could have been passed around for generations much as kaskara blades and takouba blades were.

All the best,
Jim
,

fernando · 19th October 2017, 03:04 PM

Old 30th November 2011, 08:47 AM #218

Posted by:
Gavin Nugent
Member

Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,409

Jim,

Interestingly enough Marian Glosek "Miecze srodkowoueropejskie X-XV w. was mentioned by Berber Dagger in a swap forum.

I thumbed through the book with a little more interest after this post surfaced again and found within the pages and pages and pages of trade marks from the X-XV centuries, of real interest is the back to back cresents like the Gurda marks except that the 'teeth' are not present....it is seen in figure 53.

My mind wanders to fanciful places sometimes but perhaps it is an earlier EU guild mark that developed to what it is with the teeth.

Gav
,

19th October 2017, 02:57 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Mark in a polearm Old 24th November 2011, 01:32 PM #201 Psted by: fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal This is a mark punched in an Italian Bisarma (Roncone) said to be from the XVI century, in discussion here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...9094#post129094 I wonder whether some of our members is familiar with this mark, apparently a stylized P. Would be much obliged for any ideas ! .. Maybe someone with Armi Bianche Italiane by Boccia & Coelho ? . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 03:03 PM.

19th October 2017, 03:02 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 29th November 2011, 01:43 AM #214 Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Originally Posted by fernando This is a mark punched in an Italian Bisarma (Roncone) said to be from the XVI century, in discussion here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...9094#post129094 I wonder whether some of our members is familiar with this mark, apparently a stylized P. Would be much obliged for any ideas ! .. Maybe someone with Armi Bianche Italiane by Boccia & Coelho ? (Quote) . Thank you for adding this Fernando and I appreciate its being added here for the benefit of our study of markings. As has been indicated by Michael in the original thread it would seem most likely that this would be from the workshops of Peter Pogl in Thorl, early 16th century. He was armourer for the Emperor Maximilian. In Italy a majescule P surmounted by a crown in known 16th century, very much the period for these gisarmes. . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 03:06 PM.

19th October 2017, 03:03 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 29th November 2011, 02:00 AM #215 Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Originally Posted by TVV To add to the thread, I am attaching a photo of a GENOA mark on a blade, hilted with a Sinai/Negev bedouin hilt. Pictures of the entire sword are available here: http://vikingsword.com/vb/showpost....42&postcount=16 (Quote) Thank you for posting this here Teodor, and I really appreciate having these various examples of markings added to this thread. The status of the Genoa marking as an indicator of quality on trade blades which travelled widely through many cultures trade networks has been long established. In earlier times the familiar sickle marks (dentated half circles) became associated with Genoa as the origin of the blades bearing them. This was primarily due to the fact that the name Genoa was often placed between these double arcs...it seems actually the arcs were more of a guild related symbol and blades from a number of North Italian centers carried them. Genoa was primarily the port of departure. These blades and thier markings profoundly influenced other blade making centers such as Styrian and later becoming the well known 'gurda' markings of blades in the Caucusus. Solingen often used them along with other marks and symbols. These double marked 'Genoa' names are seen on usually East European sabre blades, which often entered Arabian trade routes and were highly favored. In this case, these are clearly native applied on a well worn trade blade, but reflecting the long standing admiration for blades carrying this famed trade center's name. . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 03:08 PM.

19th October 2017, 03:03 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 30th November 2011, 12:51 AM #216 Posted by: TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Originally Posted by Jim McDougall Thank you for posting this here Teodor, and I really appreciate having these various examples of markings added to this thread. The status of the Genoa marking as an indicator of quality on trade blades which travelled widely through many cultures trade networks has been long established. In earlier times the familiar sickle marks (dentated half circles) became associated with Genoa as the origin of the blades bearing them. This was primarily due to the fact that the name Genoa was often placed between these double arcs...it seems actually the arcs were more of a guild related symbol and blades from a number of North Italian centers carried them. Genoa was primarily the port of departure. These blades and thier markings profoundly influenced other blade making centers such as Styrian and later becoming the well known 'gurda' markings of blades in the Caucusus. Solingen often used them along with other marks and symbols. These double marked 'Genoa' names are seen on usually East European sabre blades, which often entered Arabian trade routes and were highly favored. In this case, these are clearly native applied on a well worn trade blade, but reflecting the long standing admiration for blades carrying this famed trade center's name. (Quote) Thank you Jim. The blade as far as I know (since it is not in my possession) does not have any other markings. Could it have been made with no markings initially, if we are to assume that the markings were applied at a later stage, or is it possible that this is a native blade as well, for example from the Caucasus? Teodor . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 03:09 PM.

19th October 2017, 03:04 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 30th November 2011, 01:49 AM #217 Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Originally Posted by TVV Thank you Jim. The blade as far as I know (since it is not in my possession) does not have any other markings. Could it have been made with no markings initially, if we are to assume that the markings were applied at a later stage, or is it possible that this is a native blade as well, for example from the Caucasus? Teodor (Quote) Hi Teodor, As far as I know there were numerous blades from Caucasian areas and Solingen issued as blanks and were often marked by vendors, importers etc. in trade centers as received and mounted. The very incongruent arrangement of the lettering suggests of course somewhat inept copying of earlier similarly fullered blades from East Europe with the dual Genoa marks. These blades might have entered at many points into the Red Sea trade sphere, and could have been passed around for generations much as kaskara blades and takouba blades were. All the best, Jim , Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 03:10 PM.

19th October 2017, 02:59 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 25th November 2011, 05:55 AM #213 Posted by: TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area To add to the thread, I am attaching a photo of a GENOA mark on a blade, hilted with a Sinai/Negev bedouin hilt. Pictures of the entire sword are available here: http://vikingsword.com/vb/showpost....42&postcount=16 . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 03:05 PM.

19th October 2017, 03:04 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Gurda Old 30th November 2011, 08:47 AM #218 Posted by: Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,409 Jim, Interestingly enough Marian Glosek "Miecze srodkowoueropejskie X-XV w. was mentioned by Berber Dagger in a swap forum. I thumbed through the book with a little more interest after this post surfaced again and found within the pages and pages and pages of trade marks from the X-XV centuries, of real interest is the back to back cresents like the Gurda marks except that the 'teeth' are not present....it is seen in figure 53. My mind wanders to fanciful places sometimes but perhaps it is an earlier EU guild mark that developed to what it is with the teeth. Gav , Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 03:11 PM.

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