The EARLY MAKERS TRADE MARKS thread... lost and partly restored.

[fernando]

Old 20th October 2009, 11:24 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal


Hi guys, thank you all
In face of so many coments, i decided to take off my cuff links and do a bit research myself, trying to instantly catch pace with those, like you, whom gathered a lot of luggage in this subject through long time.
I will in any case continue researching and try and join as most material as i can on this item, as i usually do.
Concerning Norman's sugestion about the crucifix; considering he is right ... or half way to it. We can even go as far as imagining that this mark is a composition made with the smith punction and the client's symbol. But i am not personaly inclined to it, until further evidence ... or until we find this mark in some book or picture.
I went into the unusual (for me) adventure of dismounting the guard; fortunately the pommel is the screw type. Now the mark is as clear as possible. A real chalenge; besides the classic christ in a crucified position, as may be seen in Pedro Hernandez mark, there is a peripherical double beam cross, upon a sort of calvary and with an aureole on the top.
I wonder whether this is a Patriarchal or a Lorena Cross, or a 'modified' setup created by the smith.
I couldn't yet confirm if and what inscriptions Pedro Hernandez and other eventual crucifix mark smiths used to inscribe in their blades, but suddenly i realized that the phrase MIN SINAL HES EL SANTISSIMO CRUCIFICIO is not an abstract allusion but an objective one, that is, the signal (sign) they refer is the mark they punction on the blade recazo: the crucifix.
I don't think i assimilate the sugestion that this sword is Caribbean ... or Spanish colonial, or the like; much less a rapier .
I am totally convinced that this sword is Peninsular; either Spanish or Portuguese ... or both; like a XVII century Spanish blade with a XVIII century Portuguese hilt ... for instance .
I have just checked the digital copy of a catalogue published to cover the Ornamental Art Exhibition held in the Lisbon Academy of Fine Arts in 1882. There were four swords with the inscription MIN SINAL HES ... all (syntomaticaly) with the same spelling, and all dated by the catalogue author as being from the XVII century. And, two amazing things: one of them was a schiavona sword and another, a cup hilted one, had the marks of famous Alonso Sahagun on the blade forte.
Except for the schiavona, the other three were quoted to have a crucifix on both sides of the recazo.
I agree with Manolo that the blade shape of 'bulk' cup hilt battle swords was the dos mesas (two convex faces cross-section); i have one myself and also find one pictured and described in a book i have. But i guess this doesn't eliminate other shapes, does it? I eventually have a similarly fullered specimen in the same book, precisely with the MIN SINAL HES motto ... and in the same lettering as my example; and also dated XVII century, although i can't guarantee the author's rigour; it belongs to his own collection.
... And, Manolo, i don't think the blade is too heavy for the pommel size . Remember the blade is fullered and of short length; the point of balance is 8 cms away from the guard. What do you think?
Concerning the dimension of the rumpe puntas (quebra pontas) Jim, i see plenty like this one, as still being within the 'norm'; but here between us two, i think such implement was more on the fantasy side, rather than an operational device .
My best wishes to everyone ... and thanks a lot for your participation.
Fernando

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[fernando]

Old 21st October 2009, 01:48 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal


Meet the crucifix used by Pedro Hernandez.
Fernando
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[fernando]

Old 21st October 2009, 03:35 PM

Posted by:
celtan
Member

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: PR, USA


Hi Nando, I forgot to take into consideration the weight of its hefty cup guard, it should help the pommel maintain the balance.
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[fernando]

Old 21st October 2009, 09:37 PM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66


Superb research work Fernando! and thank you for sharing the progression of your work with observations, thoughts and details. This is very much textbook in pursuing the identification of weapons and learning the history as well, and truly the joy of them as they tell us thier stories.

The fact that these have the cuphilt feature simply reflects the traditionalism inherent in Portuguese and Spanish swords, much favored by the brilliant swordsmen who wielded them. I agree that the rompepuntas feature is indeed vestigial, or reflecting the presumed purpose on the earlier cuphilts. I think it is simply a more finished appearance rather than practical purpose such as catching blade points.

With the cuphilt rapiers of the 17th century remaining in use for so long, and these arming or military versions coming into use in the early 18th, it does not seem surprising that ambitious assessments for 17th century are made for them. I am inclined to agree for the Peninsular identity for this 'copos de tigela' and it is interesting to see that, as you have noted, the inscription seems to correspond to this 'double beamed' crucifix cross. With that it seems that this seems to suggest a 'type' of blade imbued with this talismanic element. Interestingly blades made in Solingen seem to have spurious markings employed for appeal to certain markets, i.e. the well known ANDREA FERARA blades, primarily found on Scottish baskethilt type broadsword blades; the SAHAGUM (N) blades, which seem prevalent on the Continent; and even in degree the true rapier form blades marked with inscriptions presumed Aiala et al. (JESUS MARIA) which were produced it seems even into the 18th century (these are not as clearly determined).
We have generally held for some time that the hexagonal (dos mesas) military blades with the ' no me saques sin razon/ no me envaines sin honor' motto, are most likely Solingen produced and intended for colonial consumption, being sent to New Spain in huge volume. These blades seem to correspond somewhat concurrently in the placement and style of thier inscription.

As Manolo has noted, the grip style seems to favor remounts in the colonial sphere, throughout the 'Main' and to the Phillipines.

I think the use of the cross or crucifix, is much like that of the cross and orb, used with mottos, inscriptions and invocations as talismanic enhancement, with particular devices or forms often associated with certain makers as they appear along with marked work by that maker. They are not makers marks in themselves, as you have well surmised.

Again, I really enjoy the teamwork and discussion really sharing ideas and observations in learning more on these weapons. While I've been on these trails for more years than I care to reveal, I'm still trying to learn, and I always encourage those out there reading to come in with us! One never knows where the vital clue may be found!!

All best regards,
Ji.

[fernando]

Old 26th October 2009, 07:49 AM

Posted by:
Gonzalo G
Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Nothern Mexico


I don't know if I understood well, but on the contrary, the wide central fuller 'a dos mesas' in the first two thirds of the blade is common on the spanish military swords from the 18th Century, just see this:

http://www.catalogacionarmas.com/public/49-Conchas.pdf
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The number of mesas is the number of 'facets' a blade has in one side of the blade, not counting the fuller. So, the flat diamond shaped blade has two (dos) mesas in one side, and a flat hexagon has tres (three) mesas. Usually, a rapier has a short fuller, and when it ends, you can count the number of mesas. There are flate hexagonal blades without fuller, and they are also tres mesas. But I personally believe this sword from Fernando is technically not a rapier under spanish terms, but a transition form, since it is not a civilian weapon, and the widht and form of the blade does not correspond to a rapier, since is too broad in the beginning (as a good military sword from the period) and very 'triangular' and pointy. I don't think those quillons were only vestigial. They were used also in cup hilted rapiers, and very large, due the needs imposed by the fencing techniques. In this case, the quillons are shorter but I don't think useless.
Regards

Gonzalo

[fernando]

Old 26th October 2009, 09:51 PM
Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66


Hi Gonzalo,
Its good to see you back, and much appreciated as I know the difficulty you experience in getting access at times. I think many of us take for granted the things we often regard as simple such as computer access, and just wanted to say thank you for always extending the effort.

Also thank you for the excellent observations on the 'mesas'. I had not heard nor understood the use of the term in the nomenclature, and appreciate the detail you have added.

I believe we pretty well ascertained that Fernando's sword was a military 'arming' type sword, and the rapier term here is used rather superficially, noting its similarity to the traditional cuphilt rapiers.
The 'vestigial' term here also was in reference to the 'rompepuntas', which we seem to agree was unlikely to be of use operationally as intended, in catching the point of a traditional rapier in the quite different use from combat with these heavy bladed swords.

The vestigial term used with regard to quillons was a reference I was making to a Mexican 'court' sword I have, which has the cross quillons mounted underneath the dish guard. While the sword is certainly made for fashion rather than actual use, the application of both type guards seemed redundant, and I considered the elements vestigial in representation.

The quillons on these military cuphilts, may have perhaps served a limited degree of purpose, but the style of fighting with them was certainly quite different than with the traditional thin bladed cuphilts.

All the best Gonzalo!
Jim
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[fernando]

Old 27th October 2009, 07:15 AM

Posted by:
Gonzalo G
Member

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Nothern Mexico


You are right, Jim, I am sorry for not reading well what you meant by 'vestigial', I completely agree with you.
My best regards

Gonzalo
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