The EARLY MAKERS TRADE MARKS thread... lost and partly restored.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 11:17 AM

Old 12th October 2008, 12:27 AM

Posted by:
bjeweled
Member

Join Date: Aug 2008

Default Thank you Jim!
I so appreciate your input on this. To give you a little more background on this piece...there was a tag on the saracen, from the auction house, stating "TAKEN DURING THE SECOND CRUSADE". After researching the Morosini family I discovered an aristocratic family with lineage dating to 1148 when Domenico Morosini was elected Doge of Venice. With the Second Crusade taking place from 1147 through 1149...hmmm. Considering Giovanni Morosini (the collector) was given a desk by his brother that once belonged to Napolean I would presume his family were collectors as well and keepers of their family lot. This may be a bit of a presumption, but I wonder if the Doge was the original Venetian owner of this Saracen.
I agree with the possibility of the blade being remounted. Kudos to the artistian who matched the zig zag pattern from the blade to the hilt.

New York Times Archives; July 19, 1902
Sept. 16, 1932
Time Magazine; Oct. 17. 1932

.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 11:21 AM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall

You're most welcome Bejeweled, I enjoyed the research and it really is an attractive dagger. It sounds as if this Italian family has some very impressive lineage, and now that the crusades connection is revealed, the use of the antiquated term Saracen is explained. It is not unusual to see items of unusually elevated provenance appearing in auctions and sale catalogs.

I do not believe this blade, though earlier than most examples commonly found, could date much further back than the 18th century, possibly into the early 19th. As I noted, the zigzag motif seems to be somewhat a Saharan motif, and was likely added at the time the blade was mounted in the present horn mounts etc. It is not unusual to see most unusual items in the eclectic holdings of wealthy and noble collectors, and these items were purposely gathered to impressively decorate parlors and smoking rooms in Victorian times. I believe this item may have quite interesting provenance into this apparantly esteemed collection, but personally doubt the crusades part of it.

What are the cites to New York Times and Time magazine referencing?

All very best regards,
Jim
.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 11:22 AM

Old 12th October 2008, 03:17 AM

Posted by:
bjeweled
Member

Join Date: Aug 2008

That so makes sense. I appreciate your passion and knowledge about this.

There is another interesting factor... The Nubian (Egyptian) emerald on the butt and the ones in the sheath haven't been mined since the mid 1500's upon the discovery of Columbia and their far more beautiful gemstones. Since I had to remove the emeralds from their bezels on the sheath to be able to do the soldering required to improve a terrible repair, I discovered a backing on the stones. Further investigating and magnification shows it to be a mixture of crushed malachite and bees wax, a technique used for thousands of years. Upon magnification of the emerald in the butt it has never been removed and has the same backing. So either the artisan stock piled the emeralds for 200 to 300 years or the sheath and grip were created long before the blade, or possibly the age of the blade is a bit older. As you referred to the fullers...just maybe? The techniques and tools used for the gold work and cutting of the gemstones is applicable of an earlier period than the 1500's.

Oh...I am a master jeweler with over 3 decades of experience, and an avid gemstone lover and collector.

This is so much fun, thank you again! It just becomes more interesting...

Yes, the cites are in reference to research on the Morosini's.

Kindest regards,
Bjeweled
.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 11:22 AM

Old 12th October 2008, 05:31 AM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Thank you Bejeweled for the kind comments, and this gets more and more fascinating! Trying to assess a piece from photographs, even as nicely posted as you have presented definitely has its drawbacks. My view on the blade is of course just opinion based on the profile, fullering and general appearance of the blade, which seems consistant to koummya blades of these regions. I will have to see if I can find more on other examples to see if they could date back further.

It is truly fascinating to hear this perspective on the gemstones on this piece, especially knowing of your clearly well versed knowledge and experience on this topic (now I understand the psuedonym !. It becomes really exciting when evaluating a piece when the stones used offer such historic potential!
So the emeralds in Egypt were substandard to those found in Colombia, and the mining ceased entirely after the 1500's? It does seem that in regions of North Africa, time really does stand still in many ways, and anachronism prevails. If these gemstones were part of an early cache from early trade interaction or raids, common in Saharan tribal culture, it does seem possible they might have been secreted away for hundreds of years.

It seems like new discoveries are constantly being revealed in these remote regions, like the fact that Timbuktu, once considered 'the middle of nowhere' hence the oft used expression, was actually a cultural and academic center, far beyond the dusty, mud building trade stop in the middle of the Sahara.

I think gemstones are fascinating as well, and am currently in Arizona, and have been travelling through the southwest. The history and lore of the turquoise, malachite, and other stones is beyond compelling, and once you are taken in by it, you simply cannot stop trying to learn more! While I am admittedly a complete novice, the fascination has no bounds, and now that you have brought this piece in with these mysterious gemstones...I want to learn more.

Can you possibly show the scabbard, even if not entirely complete?
Do you mean that the techniques and tools used in mounting these on the hilt and scabbard, and the cut on the stones are pre-1500's?
Is it possible that these are indeed very old stones held as heirlooms or hidden away as ancestral treasure, and that the tools and techniques used follow old traditional methods and implements? In indiginous tribal areas it seems that ancient methods prevail in many instances, especially in more remote regions and in the case of tribes who live essentially as they have for countless centuries.

It is both interesting and exciting that you have approached the research on this dagger in such depth, including the outstanding work on the history of this family. With your expertise in jewelry and gemstones, along with the mystery of those used in the mounting of the dagger, this does indeed get more fun!
In the words of Carroll....."curiouser and curiouser!".

Lets keep working on it OK? Has Dr. Ann looked at the blade BTW?

All very best regards,
Jim
.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 11:22 AM

Old 13th October 2008, 03:21 AM

Posted by:
bjeweled
Member

Join Date: Aug 2008

I agree that this blade has a koummya profile and I believe that is it's origin. I do question if the engravings are purely decorative or a geometric motiff. Perhaps it is me being a romantic, but I believe there is some sort of symbolism reference. The engravings are worn on both the hilt and the blade, but it appears that the auction house blackened the zig zag pattern on the hilt to appear more obvious.

Not all of the Nubian emeralds were substandard to the Columbian, but the vast majority, yes. Emerald (beryl) depends upon it's depth of color from chromium, and unfortunately mother earth placed very little in that region. As of this time, we are aware of 3 productive mines in Egypt, one which was named after Cleopatra and her passion thereof.

Arizona...Route 66...how nice! I love the west and visit as often as possible...mostly Santa Fe. Actually the first time I visited my beloved southwest was Tucson, for the international gem shows. It just feels like home, hopefully someday it will be. Are you aware of your wonderful Ant Hill garnets? Spectacular! And the mining techniques (none) are even more amazing.

I have low quality photos of the scabbard at another computer. Tomorrow I will email it to you. Another interesting note...when applying heat to the gold, little impurities pop and fizzle from the metal, showing the inability to refine gold as we do now. See, it's still fun!

Dr. Ann has only seen low resolution photos of the dagger. I have yet to have professional microphotography photos taken of the blade, as needed for a better identification as to whether it is wootz, very old wootz, or not. Actually, could you tell me what magnification strength would provide the best results? She is such an extremely knowledable and considerate lady, with a burning drive for her passion...such an admirable person!

I am so pleased that you want to continue working on this! Perhaps someday when I visit my "future" home, you would like to have a hands on inspection?

Kindest regards,
bjeweled
.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 11:23 AM

Old 13th October 2008, 12:02 PM

Posted by:
celtan
Member

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: PR, USA

How about a more prosaic view? Couldn't this be sort like an artillery dagger, with a measure for either black powder load or perhaps gun caliber?

Best
.

M

Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
The problem for the layman in attributing to a determined set of figures an esoteric conotation, is a two ended stick. If you don't pay any notice, you might be missing something valuable, but if you bring the thing to the others attention, and it ends up being a fake or a nonsense , you play the role of you know what i mean .
I have posted this dagger in the UBB Forum five years ago. It had no clear classification from the members, as possibly being either a put together piece with a salvaged blade, or hardly a main gauche, maybe even a side arm, and so on. I would go for the ( civilian ) side arm myself, possibly ( possibly ) rehilted, but not certainly "rebladed", as the said looks to me having never being longer or different than how it is now. It has a losangular cross section and measures 14" ( 36 cms. ), quite long for a comon dagger.
However this time i show it for the purpose of apreciating the marks struck on both grip and guard.
Would you people say this has a mystic flavour, or was only the smith that had these punctions at hand and decided to make his own naive creation?
Fernando (Quote)
.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 11:23 AM

Old 13th October 2008, 03:53 PM

Posted by:
Rick
Member

Join Date: Nov 2004

More zigzag pattern ?
This time a Balkan ca 1800 Yataghan scabbard .

This Koummya blade looks very early and somewhat crude .

Fascinating story .

(missing attachments)
.

19th October 2017, 11:17 AM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 12th October 2008, 12:27 AM Posted by: bjeweled Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Default Thank you Jim! I so appreciate your input on this. To give you a little more background on this piece...there was a tag on the saracen, from the auction house, stating "TAKEN DURING THE SECOND CRUSADE". After researching the Morosini family I discovered an aristocratic family with lineage dating to 1148 when Domenico Morosini was elected Doge of Venice. With the Second Crusade taking place from 1147 through 1149...hmmm. Considering Giovanni Morosini (the collector) was given a desk by his brother that once belonged to Napolean I would presume his family were collectors as well and keepers of their family lot. This may be a bit of a presumption, but I wonder if the Doge was the original Venetian owner of this Saracen. I agree with the possibility of the blade being remounted. Kudos to the artistian who matched the zig zag pattern from the blade to the hilt. New York Times Archives; July 19, 1902 Sept. 16, 1932 Time Magazine; Oct. 17. 1932 . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 12:01 PM.

19th October 2017, 11:21 AM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Posted by: Jim McDougall You're most welcome Bejeweled, I enjoyed the research and it really is an attractive dagger. It sounds as if this Italian family has some very impressive lineage, and now that the crusades connection is revealed, the use of the antiquated term Saracen is explained. It is not unusual to see items of unusually elevated provenance appearing in auctions and sale catalogs. I do not believe this blade, though earlier than most examples commonly found, could date much further back than the 18th century, possibly into the early 19th. As I noted, the zigzag motif seems to be somewhat a Saharan motif, and was likely added at the time the blade was mounted in the present horn mounts etc. It is not unusual to see most unusual items in the eclectic holdings of wealthy and noble collectors, and these items were purposely gathered to impressively decorate parlors and smoking rooms in Victorian times. I believe this item may have quite interesting provenance into this apparantly esteemed collection, but personally doubt the crusades part of it. What are the cites to New York Times and Time magazine referencing? All very best regards, Jim . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 12:03 PM.

19th October 2017, 11:22 AM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Again, thank you! Old 12th October 2008, 03:17 AM Posted by: bjeweled Member Join Date: Aug 2008 That so makes sense. I appreciate your passion and knowledge about this. There is another interesting factor... The Nubian (Egyptian) emerald on the butt and the ones in the sheath haven't been mined since the mid 1500's upon the discovery of Columbia and their far more beautiful gemstones. Since I had to remove the emeralds from their bezels on the sheath to be able to do the soldering required to improve a terrible repair, I discovered a backing on the stones. Further investigating and magnification shows it to be a mixture of crushed malachite and bees wax, a technique used for thousands of years. Upon magnification of the emerald in the butt it has never been removed and has the same backing. So either the artisan stock piled the emeralds for 200 to 300 years or the sheath and grip were created long before the blade, or possibly the age of the blade is a bit older. As you referred to the fullers...just maybe? The techniques and tools used for the gold work and cutting of the gemstones is applicable of an earlier period than the 1500's. Oh...I am a master jeweler with over 3 decades of experience, and an avid gemstone lover and collector. This is so much fun, thank you again! It just becomes more interesting... Yes, the cites are in reference to research on the Morosini's. Kindest regards, Bjeweled . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 12:04 PM.

19th October 2017, 11:22 AM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 12th October 2008, 05:31 AM Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Thank you Bejeweled for the kind comments, and this gets more and more fascinating! Trying to assess a piece from photographs, even as nicely posted as you have presented definitely has its drawbacks. My view on the blade is of course just opinion based on the profile, fullering and general appearance of the blade, which seems consistant to koummya blades of these regions. I will have to see if I can find more on other examples to see if they could date back further. It is truly fascinating to hear this perspective on the gemstones on this piece, especially knowing of your clearly well versed knowledge and experience on this topic (now I understand the psuedonym !. It becomes really exciting when evaluating a piece when the stones used offer such historic potential! So the emeralds in Egypt were substandard to those found in Colombia, and the mining ceased entirely after the 1500's? It does seem that in regions of North Africa, time really does stand still in many ways, and anachronism prevails. If these gemstones were part of an early cache from early trade interaction or raids, common in Saharan tribal culture, it does seem possible they might have been secreted away for hundreds of years. It seems like new discoveries are constantly being revealed in these remote regions, like the fact that Timbuktu, once considered 'the middle of nowhere' hence the oft used expression, was actually a cultural and academic center, far beyond the dusty, mud building trade stop in the middle of the Sahara. I think gemstones are fascinating as well, and am currently in Arizona, and have been travelling through the southwest. The history and lore of the turquoise, malachite, and other stones is beyond compelling, and once you are taken in by it, you simply cannot stop trying to learn more! While I am admittedly a complete novice, the fascination has no bounds, and now that you have brought this piece in with these mysterious gemstones...I want to learn more. Can you possibly show the scabbard, even if not entirely complete? Do you mean that the techniques and tools used in mounting these on the hilt and scabbard, and the cut on the stones are pre-1500's? Is it possible that these are indeed very old stones held as heirlooms or hidden away as ancestral treasure, and that the tools and techniques used follow old traditional methods and implements? In indiginous tribal areas it seems that ancient methods prevail in many instances, especially in more remote regions and in the case of tribes who live essentially as they have for countless centuries. It is both interesting and exciting that you have approached the research on this dagger in such depth, including the outstanding work on the history of this family. With your expertise in jewelry and gemstones, along with the mystery of those used in the mounting of the dagger, this does indeed get more fun! In the words of Carroll....."curiouser and curiouser!". Lets keep working on it OK? Has Dr. Ann looked at the blade BTW? All very best regards, Jim . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 12:05 PM.

19th October 2017, 11:22 AM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	How fun is this? Old 13th October 2008, 03:21 AM Posted by: bjeweled Member Join Date: Aug 2008 I agree that this blade has a koummya profile and I believe that is it's origin. I do question if the engravings are purely decorative or a geometric motiff. Perhaps it is me being a romantic, but I believe there is some sort of symbolism reference. The engravings are worn on both the hilt and the blade, but it appears that the auction house blackened the zig zag pattern on the hilt to appear more obvious. Not all of the Nubian emeralds were substandard to the Columbian, but the vast majority, yes. Emerald (beryl) depends upon it's depth of color from chromium, and unfortunately mother earth placed very little in that region. As of this time, we are aware of 3 productive mines in Egypt, one which was named after Cleopatra and her passion thereof. Arizona...Route 66...how nice! I love the west and visit as often as possible...mostly Santa Fe. Actually the first time I visited my beloved southwest was Tucson, for the international gem shows. It just feels like home, hopefully someday it will be. Are you aware of your wonderful Ant Hill garnets? Spectacular! And the mining techniques (none) are even more amazing. I have low quality photos of the scabbard at another computer. Tomorrow I will email it to you. Another interesting note...when applying heat to the gold, little impurities pop and fizzle from the metal, showing the inability to refine gold as we do now. See, it's still fun! Dr. Ann has only seen low resolution photos of the dagger. I have yet to have professional microphotography photos taken of the blade, as needed for a better identification as to whether it is wootz, very old wootz, or not. Actually, could you tell me what magnification strength would provide the best results? She is such an extremely knowledable and considerate lady, with a burning drive for her passion...such an admirable person! I am so pleased that you want to continue working on this! Perhaps someday when I visit my "future" home, you would like to have a hands on inspection? Kindest regards, bjeweled . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 12:27 PM.

19th October 2017, 11:23 AM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 13th October 2008, 12:02 PM Posted by: celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA How about a more prosaic view? Couldn't this be sort like an artillery dagger, with a measure for either black powder load or perhaps gun caliber? Best . M Quote: Originally Posted by fernando The problem for the layman in attributing to a determined set of figures an esoteric conotation, is a two ended stick. If you don't pay any notice, you might be missing something valuable, but if you bring the thing to the others attention, and it ends up being a fake or a nonsense , you play the role of you know what i mean . I have posted this dagger in the UBB Forum five years ago. It had no clear classification from the members, as possibly being either a put together piece with a salvaged blade, or hardly a main gauche, maybe even a side arm, and so on. I would go for the ( civilian ) side arm myself, possibly ( possibly ) rehilted, but not certainly "rebladed", as the said looks to me having never being longer or different than how it is now. It has a losangular cross section and measures 14" ( 36 cms. ), quite long for a comon dagger. However this time i show it for the purpose of apreciating the marks struck on both grip and guard. Would you people say this has a mystic flavour, or was only the smith that had these punctions at hand and decided to make his own naive creation? Fernando (Quote) . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 12:29 PM.

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