The EARLY MAKERS TRADE MARKS thread... lost and partly restored.

[fernando]

Old 26th November 2007, 05:04 AM

Posted by:
Gavin Nugent
Member

Join Date: Oct 2007
A great reference book

Hi Jim, I have been looking through all sorts of books and thought to bring to light R.D.C.Evans The Plug Bayonet, an identification guide for collectors. I did intend on scanning some of the pages, but once you get reading, almost every page of the books refers to or reveals makers marks. I am almost certain there would be many a cross over between sword and bayonet cutlers to be found in this book. An outstanding reference book!!!
.

[fernando]

Old 26th November 2007, 11:46 AM

Posted by:
Jens Nordlunde
Member

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Europe

Hi Jim,

In Danske Blankvaaben by Kay S. Nielsen, Forlaget Sixtus, 1978. Resume in German at the back of the book.

Around 1600. In the fuller inlaid with copper ME FECIT SOLINGEN

Around 1610. CLEMENS MEIGENN inlaid with copper.

Around 1680. In each of the four fullers IHESUS inlaid with copper.

Around 1700. Crescent and three stars on both sides.

Around 1700. On both sides sun, crescent, stars and an arm with a sword.

Around 1708. XX IN X MINI XX on both sides, in the fuller.

On many of them you can see the king�s monogram and a crown as well.
.

[fernando]

Old 26th November 2007, 12:25 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Quote:
Originally Posted by freebooter
Hi Jim, I have been looking through all sorts of books and thought to bring to light R.D.C.Evans The Plug Bayonet, an identification guide for collectors. I did intend on scanning some of the pages, but once you get reading, almost every page of the books refers to or reveals makers marks. I am almost certain there would be many a cross over between sword and bayonet cutlers to be found in this book. An outstanding reference book!!! (Quote)

But of course, Gavin!
How was i so blind
Although the work comprehends a study on Plug bayonets and their so called cuttlers, i guess most marking material is just the same, as also such makers come to be the same who made sword blades.
As you say, there are zillions of marks on the ilustrated examples. It would be nice if you volunteer to scan some of them, specially those that appear to be common to the sword theme ... you were the one that came up first with the idea
You have for instance a symbol that appears to be popular around, as it is shown in Italian and British examples: the anchor ... yes Jim, that's the name ( at least ) used by Evans.
This is to coincide with the mark applied to a piece i was about to post here, after checking its viability with Jim. This because the piece is a sword stick, not so much apreciated by some, but with an interesting blade, which i will first let Jim to make his expertized coments about. If some further detail needed, i will secondarize with the respective info ... if i can
This will confirm that the anchor symbol was assigned to several Masters as, besides Italian and British, it also appears in Portuguese blades ... or Spanish ... or both. Jim has comented that this symbol doesn't appear on the famous Tomas Ayala blades. In this case, the nice example i saw yesterday being discussed in a determined Forum ( i think i lost it ) was a fake ... which is quite frequent, although in this case the blade was very well forged, i would say worthy of a master.
All the best.
Fernando
.

[fernando]

Old 26th November 2007, 06:09 PM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Hello Freebooter! and thank you for coming in with us on this important and developing work on trade blades and thier inscriptions and marks. You are 100% right, the book by Evans is a goldmine on markings, and I had forgotten that great resource, which I unfortunately do not presently have access to.
He is indeed a terrific researcher, and I remember communicating with him for some time years before he wrote his fantastic book, when he was writing a periodical article titled "Cold Steel". Each bayonet he focused on typically included markings etc. but the plug bayonets, his personal favorite, were of course the examples that carried contemporary detail, and eventually led to the book.

Fernando thank you for adding to the notes on this important resource. I think that possibly posting illustrations of the particular examples being discussed from the Evans book would be outstanding (I gotta work on getting my copy back!!!) and Freebooter, it would be so very much appreciated if you could help with these!!

Thank you for the note on the marking we were discussing Fernando.....the ANCHOR! That would make sense, and the flayed arms on the base does correspond to the shape of anchors in a sense. Since there is a relation to these and merchant marks used often used by traders, it adds to the plausibility of the term. I was incorrect in my comment on this not appearing on blades considered associated with Ayala, in retrospect it seems I do recall seeing something like that on the JESUS MARIA blade I mentioned. The blade had been recovered from a shipwreck in a large grouping of blades that were apparantly being sent to Spain's colonies, and was in pretty rough condition. In close up's I do recall seeing the mark though.

Thank you very much Fernando, for posting that great blade, which gives us a good view of these often exported rapier blades (Excellent close ups on these markings BTW ! It is important to note the serifs on the letters which emphasize the lettering style...and is that a cross near the ricasso?).It seems these were actually even exported after they had essentially become obsolete with the advent of the shorter, heavier smallsword blades in the 18th century. It is known of course, that Spain held strongly to thier sword traditions for much longer than many countries, as thier superb swordsmen maintained that tradition. It is puzzling though as it seems the cuphilt swords that were mounted in the colonies and Caribbean usually had the much heavier broadsword blades, rather than the rapier blades. Possibly the officers looked for replacement blades for thier swords ?

I hope we will see more examples of this 'anchor' marking that seem to occur usually near the fuller, particularly those with central fullers as broadswords and rapiers.

Thank you Jens for adding those Danish examples from the book! It does show that the German blades were used quite widely. If I am not mistaken, German swordsmiths even went to open workshops in Sweden, Russia as well as England as has been noted with Hounslow and Shotley Bridge. I am not sure if they went to Denmark.

Thank you so much guys for these latest entries!

All best regards,
Jim
.

[fernando]

Old 26th November 2007, 06:40 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal


We were warned by Dr. Lee Jones that, due to the recent spam measures, new member first postings would spend a couple days in quarantine, before they get visible in the respective thread.
However it didn't occur (to me) that they keep their position in the posting sequence relative to the date they were emited. This is then why posting #44 has appeared today, but dated and positioned as from two days ago.
Greetings to new member Don F., and thanks for the examples he has posted to enrich this theme. I am sure Jim will have a say at such pieces interest.
Fernando
.

[fernando]

Old 26th November 2007, 06:49 PM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66


Don F.
Please accept my apologies! I just reviewed the thread and realized that I entirely overlooked your excellent post with these interesting examples! It often frustrates me when others disregard previous posts or ignore them, and here I've inadvertantly done just that very sorry.

The first sword you show appears to be a 19th century military sabre for an officer, with what seems to be somewhat earlier blade, which carrys the cabalistic markings and military panopolies characteristic of many cavalry sabre blades into the mid 19th century. The crescent moon with stars are often applied to the German trade blades.

The Arabian sa'if is a late 18th century Yemeni/Hadrahmaut example and most interesting with the running wolf blade! These Arabian swords according to Elgood seem to have mounted in India in Hyderabad. We may presume that possibly this Solingen blade may have entered India via trade on the Malabar Coast there and then made it to Hyderabad. If it had entered via the Mahratta trade it would likely have been mounted in a firangi. This is all of course presuming the sword had been mounted in India. There are of course many other scenarios, and this is intended simply to illustrate plausible movement of these blades.

The third example is a beautiful example of the English 'Mortuary' sword. I would add here that the term is actually a misnomer since these were supposedly created carrying the 'death mask' of Charles I, thus given the term. Actually these basket hilt horsemans swords predated the event, and examples with the face later prompted the term.
These English swords often had German blades, and many are known with ANDREA FERARA, including one carried by Cromwell. The German makers at Hounslow were actually brought in by Royalists to produce weapons there, and this example well illustrates the ME FECIT SOLINGEN application used by the Hounslow smiths. It also supports the possibility that the Hounslow smiths may have applied the ANDREA FERARA as well.......although it is obvious that the many Scottish basket hilt blades with this marking were emphatically not from Hounslow!!

Thank you so much Don for posting these, and again please accept my apologies.

All very best regards,
Jim

.

[fernando]

Old 26th November 2007, 07:11 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

This is one the most incisive and well punctioned anchors i have seen. I picked it from the Internet, October last year, and i deeply regret i didn't register its provenance ...most probably a selling site. All i ( surely) know is that it was struck on a boy's kaskara, .
Perfect, isn't it?
( I hope i am not exagerating )
Fernando
.